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Re: Meh... darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM

Yes I agree that Rand has those memories and that's what I'm alluding to. He says you take Compulsion and reverse it. He says that he's not very good with it. So it's similar.


It doesn't mean the original weavings are similar in anyway, only the that the general principle of reversing a weave is the same.

I read this as he was talking about weaving with saidar in the first place. Just like Semirhage used saidin when torturing Min. Rand can't even see the weaves so of course he's not very good at it He could also just mean that he wasn't good at this skill in general as well...

We don't know that about Flinn. We only know that he struggles to weave gateways. I completely agree with you that people with Talents are vastly superior to those who don't have the Talent, but some generalizations can be made. If you ask someone to make a giant fireball you can sort of say what they're capable of. It's unlikely they're very weak or very strong in Fire.


See I disagree that you can judge raw strength like this, what if a fireball is half as big but three times as hot? Just trying to say "Flinn is stronger than Grady because his fireball was much larger" is missing a lot of nuance. Gateway size is much the same. We know for fact that Rand doesn't use all his strength to make his largest Gateway. Why should the size of any individuals Gateway be any real clue to their strength? It's a Talent, therefore someone with a strong Talent for it wouldn't need to use as much strength to make a bigger Gateway.

I said this in another thread somewhere, but if you assume Rand has both the best Talent and the highest strength in the OP then an equal strength channeler with less Talent cannot make a greater size Gateway.

Example with many assumptions:

Rand with 100 Strength and 100% Talent makes a 16 unit Gateway
Logain with 100 Strength but only 90% Talent makes a 13 unit Gateway

Ultimately there is a strength level minimum, but it probably varies based on how strong the Talent is in the individual... and it's probably a different scale for saidin users than saidar users.

Yes, but you said you don't consider them to be the same, whereas I do.


I don't consider the way they are woven and controlled to related. Saidin and saidar weaving is so alien to one another than men and women cannot even teach each other outside of general theory.

Yes, it's obviously a saidar thing, probably centered around Air. I'm merely pointing out that strength in the Power can bridge many obstacles that are supposed to be there. I'm quite sure that Nynaeve isn't strong in all the five Powers but she doesn't really struggle with anything either. Likewise I think that most Ash'aman would struggle to weave an Air bridge, because it's Air (most Aes Sedai can't even fuse bricks using Earth). However, Rand is so strong in the Power he can pull it off, so I think it would take a powerful woman to exceed him. Rand can't Heal despite being strong, but making a bridge is a product of Air, and Rand can probably overcome that with strength to some degree. I think Lanfear would have the same limitations with Fire and Earth, but I still think it would take a very strong male to exceed her.


I mostly agree with this, it's obvious that a woman of Nynaeve's strength is far more likely to exceed Rand in areas than a woman of Moiraine's, but we don't have any kind of proof that a woman like Moiraine who is extremely strong with air couldn't outstrip Rand. IMO flow strength is a whole other ball of wax! I think that flow strength plays a much bigger role in individual weaves than we've discussed here, but it is probably a entire thread topic
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 8261 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1598 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1586 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1392 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1508 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1078 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1486 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1366 Views
Indeed, and not only that Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1071 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1144 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 751 Views
why? darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1193 Views
Re: why? Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1268 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1236 Views
and yet RJ does Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1145 Views
Re: and yet RJ does darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1023 Views
Re: and yet RJ does Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1115 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1229 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 972 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 926 Views
Meh... Sidious - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 933 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 981 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1242 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1192 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1101 Views
Let's work with your figures... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1037 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1031 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 710 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1132 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1162 Views
the obvious answer darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1021 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1045 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Logain - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 978 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1157 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1231 Views
I think all the main characters were forced Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1139 Views
agreed! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1053 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1062 Views
What? Where? *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1121 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1041 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1020 Views
Don't links amplify stength? BlackAdder - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 957 Views
The opposite, actually. Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1060 Views
Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength Logain - 17/12/2009 07:46:55 PM 971 Views
Re: Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:55:38 PM 1157 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Logain - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1191 Views
It means even Moghedien is vastly stronger than the average modern Aes Sedai... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:48:09 PM 1178 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1091 Views
Agreed! *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 631 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1167 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1119 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1345 Views
uhm.... yes she knows Oberonus - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1184 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1070 Views
yup *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 587 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1148 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1337 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1088 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1027 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1056 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1063 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? Logain - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 988 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 951 Views
Elayne says Egwene was at her full strength in TSR, and thus was stronger than she currently was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:25:31 PM 930 Views
Elayne says Egwene was forced and was thus currently stronger darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:51:28 PM 972 Views
Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 11:23:20 PM 1003 Views
Re: Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:25:31 PM 1004 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* Cannoli - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 637 Views
I'll check *NM* Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 606 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... Shannow - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1114 Views
No people just interpret things differently darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 921 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 865 Views
I think they are secretly just trying to make Lanfear appear that much stronger *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM 569 Views
You also forget something. Phelix - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 954 Views
Re: You also forget something. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 978 Views
Re: You also forget something. Phelix - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1003 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 963 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 880 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 922 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 904 Views
I cannot. That's the point... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 931 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 935 Views
Sorry, but no... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 974 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... Shannow - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1455 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 937 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 843 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 881 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 936 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 898 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 837 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 905 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 971 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 905 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 985 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1005 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1068 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1005 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 983 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 910 Views
Explain one thing to me... Shannow - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 926 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 542 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. Shannow - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 885 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 936 Views
Can you provide the quote? fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 845 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1024 Views
which is also suspect darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 947 Views
No it's not Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 919 Views
we're in agreement darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 869 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 949 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 917 Views
I don't think it's a lie BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 970 Views
Agreed Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 924 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 905 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 880 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 928 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 984 Views
I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 976 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 950 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 931 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 963 Views
Why are you entertaining this? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 940 Views
The other poster showed no proof that RJ's math was wrong. Read what he said again! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:09:49 PM 585 Views
Verin's circle matched Granedal dude. And average strength does not mean great strength. fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:07:51 PM 951 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 954 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 955 Views
of course it's about skill darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 944 Views
Not it isn't! Sidious - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 974 Views
If she was only thinking about strength why then didn't she have a plan to add Sheriam darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 07:09:08 PM 897 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... everynametaken - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1055 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. Heiko - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1178 Views
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