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You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... Shannow Send a noteboard - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM

Yes, true, but I think if you take a subset from a bell curve, that subset will also have the characteristics of a bell curve.

Not if the subset is not a random sampling. And the Tower is anything but a random sample. IT has several criteria of exclusion, like removing all women below a particular strength range, not having any women who do not come asking to be made AS, etc. As a result, the distribution will be skewed.
Further, if a subset has a distribution that violates the distribution of the superset, yoy have to assume an error in sampling.

See what I just said about subsets. If that is wrong, then you are right.

That is indeed wrong.

Why not? The median is just the person in the middle, not necessarily the middle of the range. For example, in the following set of numbers:

5, 20, 500, 1000, 5,000

500 is the median. True, in a bell curve, mean=median=mode, so you could have a distribution like this:

10, 20, 30, 40, 40, 60, 80

mean = median = mode = 40

Note that the middle of the range between 10 and 80 is 45.

You're assuming a discontinuous range then. That has absolutely no basis in fact. There is not one shred of proof that certain strengths between the lowest and highest strengths cannot exist, which is what you're implying by having 5 and 20 in your list, but not 10, 15, etc.

See above.

See above!

Not necessarily.

Yes necessarily. the mistake you're making is that you think the bell curve distribution is a hypothesis based on random statistical sampling of all channelers. In that case, it is indeed possible that you'll have no person occupying certain strength scales, which will shift the mean.
In this case however, RJ has declared that all his imaginary characters follow this law. And has given absolutely no indication that there are levels which no human can occupy between the minima and the maxima of the range.

I assumed Moiraine and old Siuan were equals, then Siuan was half her old strength (4K and 2K). It seemed a reasonable place to put them within the distribution, since Moiraine is one of the strongest AS. I don't know if 3K is the correct place to put an average AS, but it can make sense in a bell curve (i.e., the average channeler doesn't have to be in the middle of the range).

No it cannot. Not in this bell curve. For that, you'll have to prove that no human has strengths like 12000, 11,000, etc. Which is not true at all.

The distribution is based off the 68-95-99.7 rule (wiki it). In brief, 68% of the population of interest is within plus or minus one SD of the mean, 95% within two, and 99.7% within 3.

I'm quite aware of this, thank you. Why this is being pointed out is my (as yet unanswered) question.

Well yes, but so has RJ. OK, Morgase and a bunch of no-name novices/wilders we've never met, then.

No he has not! There are women thrown out of the Tower because they're too weak. There are women who become Accepted, but not AS. All these women are rarer than women who can become AS, but the Tower doesn't know because they don't actively hunt out all channelers.

Sorry, I skimmed most of this thread, but I saw that people were using shielding as a way to measure strengh. For example, 3 people shielding Semi vs. 2 for egwene, etc. If that is not good for measuring strength (and I don't think it is the best way, really), then forget that point.

The shield theory works okay within the same gender. But we know men can shield men more easily than men can shield women and vice versa. So I think using this to compare male and female strengths is ridiculous.


The Tower mostly excludes people who are too weak to test for the shawl. Not only do we know this for a fact, we actually know what percentage of women are excluded for this reason. 37.5% to be precise.

That means 37.5% of women are weaker than Dagian, by the way. The one indisputable fact we have in this debate.

Now, if you took a random sample, you would expect the average to be more or less equal to the average of the entire population. But this sample (the Aes Sedai)is not random, in fact, it excludes 37.5% of women who are weaker than Dagian. Thereofore, a sample consisting only of Aes Sedai would be skewed to the stronger side of the range. In other words, the average for this sample would fall above the average for the entire population.

Therefore, the average Aes Sedai is stronger than the average woman. Now from my recollection, women like Alanna and Verin are already above average for an Aes Sedai. That means, according to your theory, Alanna and Verin would each be more than 50% as strong as Rand.

But let's go back to the stats for a moment.

So we know now that the average strength woman must fall somewhere between Dagian and the average Aes Sedai. So what we are saying is that what we would consider a "weak" modern day Aes Sedai is actually comparable to the average strength woman from the general channeling population.

And according to you, such a weak Aes Sedai must be 50% as strong as Lanfear, and EFFECTIVELY, 50% as strong as Rand.

See the problem yet?

Now let's extrapolate a bit further.

So we see that out of our sample of 1000 women (the Tower), only 5 women (6 if you include Cadsuane) are of Moiraine strength or higher. I think they were given in New Spring as Moiriane, Siuan, Lelaine, Romanda and maybe Elaida. (Someone who has actually read New Spring might correct me on this).

Anyway, 5 out of 1000 gives you a percentage of 0.5, meaning that 99.5% of observations do not fall this far away from the mean. Let's double the number of people this far from the mean to 10 (to account for Cadsuane, and others who might not have been picked up, and let's also include those equi-distant from the mean on the lower end of the spectrum, like Dagian etc.), and make it a round 95%, for simplicity's sake. And what do you know. This means that Moiraine, Lelaine and Romanda's level is 2 standard deviations away from the White Tower mean (which in this case is the average Aes Sedai, not the average woman, by the way).

Let's say that again, just to hammer it down. In the 1000 woman sample from the Tower (which is already SKEWED TO THE STRONGER SIDE), someone of Moiriane's strength is 2 standard deviations above the mean. Wow.

That means you would be hard pressed to find a stronger channeler than her. That also means that Dagian is at least 2 standard deviations below the average Aes Sedai in strength.

So, since we know from Siuan that she is currently around one third of her previous strength (and only barely above Dagian in strength) we can now extrapolate the standard deviation from this.

Siuan strongly suggests that if she was two thirds her old strength, she would be of about average Aes Sedai strength.

Therefore, we can estimate that Moiraine is about half again as strong as the average woman. And since we have established that Moiraine is about 2 standard deviations from the mean, that means that the standard deviation - for Aes Sedai - equates to about a quarter of the average Aes Sedai's strength.

So, since we know that the average Aes Sedai is stronger than the average woman, it means that according to your model, we have to put the average Aes Sedai at more than 50. Let's put her at 60, just to have a round figure. It wouldn't be be materially different if it was 55 or 56 or whatever. Anyway, if we take the average Aes Sedai to be 60, then one standard deviation above that would take you to 75, and two standard deviations above that would take you to 90. So Moiraine's level would be 90!

And since we know that Egwene is as strong as Amys and Melaine combined, (Amys is equal to Moiraine by the way), that means that Egwene would have a strenth of approximately 90 + 75 = 165.

That gives us a tiny problem, seeing as Lanfear, the strongest woman ever, is only on 100 on the female scale.

Clearly, therefore, the average Aes Sedai strength has to be FAR below 60, and therefore the average woman's strength has to be far below 50.





This message last edited by Shannow on 18/12/2009 at 07:57:23 AM
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 8260 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1596 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1585 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1390 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1507 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1076 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1484 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1365 Views
Indeed, and not only that - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1070 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1143 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 751 Views
why? - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1192 Views
Re: why? - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1268 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1235 Views
and yet RJ does - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1143 Views
Re: and yet RJ does - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1023 Views
Re: and yet RJ does - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1112 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1228 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 971 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 924 Views
Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 931 Views
Re: Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 981 Views
Re: Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1240 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1191 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1099 Views
Let's work with your figures... - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1036 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1030 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 710 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1131 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1160 Views
the obvious answer - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1021 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1044 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 976 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1156 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1231 Views
I think all the main characters were forced - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1137 Views
agreed! - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1052 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1061 Views
What? Where? *NM* - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1120 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1040 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1018 Views
Don't links amplify stength? - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 956 Views
The opposite, actually. - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1060 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1191 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1091 Views
Agreed! *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 631 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1166 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1118 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1344 Views
uhm.... yes she knows - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1184 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1068 Views
yup *NM* - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 587 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1147 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1335 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1086 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1025 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1055 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1061 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 987 Views
agreed - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 949 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 637 Views
I'll check *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 606 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1114 Views
No people just interpret things differently - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 921 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 864 Views
You also forget something. - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 953 Views
Re: You also forget something. - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 977 Views
Re: You also forget something. - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1001 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 962 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 879 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 922 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 903 Views
I cannot. That's the point... - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 930 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 935 Views
Sorry, but no... - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 973 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1454 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 937 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 842 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 880 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 934 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 898 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 836 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 905 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 969 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 905 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 983 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1004 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1066 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1005 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 982 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 909 Views
Explain one thing to me... - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 925 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 542 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 884 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 935 Views
Can you provide the quote? - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 844 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1024 Views
which is also suspect - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 946 Views
No it's not - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 918 Views
we're in agreement - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 868 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 948 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 917 Views
I don't think it's a lie - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 969 Views
Agreed - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 922 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 904 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 879 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 926 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 983 Views
I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 975 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 950 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 929 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 961 Views
Why are you entertaining this? - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 939 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 954 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 954 Views
of course it's about skill - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 943 Views
Not it isn't! - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 974 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1055 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1178 Views

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