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Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder Send a noteboard - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM
I'll quote the wiki article on normal distribution/bell curve distribution just so there is no confusion on this:

Parameter ? is called the mean, and it determines the location of the peak of the density function. Point x = ? is at the same time the mean, the median and the mode of normal distribution.

Is that clear?

Now, RJ very very clearly said that all, I repeat ALL, channelers are distributed in a bell curve. Very clearly, people like Rand are not excluded from this distribution.

Therefore, if you're going to take Rand as the theoretical maximum in OP strength, and someone like Morghase as the theoretical minimum, the range of the bell curve will be from Morghase to Rand.

We have arbitrarily used strengths from 1 to 100 to designate the Morghase to Rand range. You can choose 2 to 947, for all I care, but the fact remains that no matter how you want to interpret the text, no matter how you want to curve your hand around your head to touch your nose, the mean, median and mode of this range will be the same for a bell curve distribution.

In a 1 to 100 range, 50 will have to be the median. As wiki says:

The median of a finite list of numbers can be found by arranging all the observations from lowest value to highest value and picking the middle one. If there is an even number of observations, then there is no single middle value, so one often takes the mean of the two middle values.

Thus, 50 is the median. And since the range 1-100 is distributed normally among the channeling population, the mean of the channeling population is also going to be 50. This is a mathematical truth, and there's no other possible interpretation!

The 1-100 is a RELATIVE scale, not an absolute scale and thus what wiki says does not apply. We do not know the standard deviation, so we don't know what exactly the mean is in that scale. It will certainly not be 50, based on the books.

Which means the average woman has an effective strength of 50, which is half of Rand's strength. This also means more women will be of this strength than any other.

Now, you have several options.

You could make the infantile argument that RJ did not have any idea what a Bell Curve was.

You can say that there are tons of Egwene level (50 according to you) channelers out there who have never been discovered, and some mysterious force prevented every single one of these women from finding their way to the Tower for a thousand years.

Or, you can admit that me and Darius are correct, that the strength of 50 reflects the strength of a strong Aes Sedai like Anaiya and that women like Egwene are much rarer and likely somewhere between 60 and 70. You can also pay attention to the very well known fact that it is harder for women to shield men and vice versa.

Me and Darius think that math and RJ's quotes should colour ou reading of the text. This seems eminently reasonable to me, but perhaps you have some explanation that will convince me to disbelieve what math and RJ tell us and instead follow your perspective on the text?
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 8261 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1598 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1586 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1391 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1508 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1076 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1484 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1365 Views
Indeed, and not only that Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1070 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1143 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 751 Views
why? darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1193 Views
Re: why? Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1268 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1236 Views
and yet RJ does Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1145 Views
Re: and yet RJ does darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1023 Views
Re: and yet RJ does Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1114 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1228 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 972 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 926 Views
Meh... Sidious - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 933 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 981 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1240 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1191 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1100 Views
Let's work with your figures... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1036 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1030 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 710 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1131 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1161 Views
the obvious answer darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1021 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1045 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Logain - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 976 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1157 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1231 Views
I think all the main characters were forced Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1137 Views
agreed! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1052 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1062 Views
What? Where? *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1121 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1041 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1019 Views
Don't links amplify stength? BlackAdder - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 957 Views
The opposite, actually. Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1060 Views
Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength Logain - 17/12/2009 07:46:55 PM 970 Views
Re: Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:55:38 PM 1157 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Logain - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1191 Views
It means even Moghedien is vastly stronger than the average modern Aes Sedai... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:48:09 PM 1178 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1091 Views
Agreed! *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 631 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1167 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1119 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1345 Views
uhm.... yes she knows Oberonus - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1184 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1070 Views
yup *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 587 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1147 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1336 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1088 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1025 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1056 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1063 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? Logain - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 988 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 949 Views
Elayne says Egwene was at her full strength in TSR, and thus was stronger than she currently was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:25:31 PM 930 Views
Elayne says Egwene was forced and was thus currently stronger darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:51:28 PM 971 Views
Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 11:23:20 PM 1002 Views
Re: Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:25:31 PM 1004 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* Cannoli - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 637 Views
I'll check *NM* Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 606 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... Shannow - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1114 Views
No people just interpret things differently darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 921 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 865 Views
I think they are secretly just trying to make Lanfear appear that much stronger *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM 569 Views
You also forget something. Phelix - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 953 Views
Re: You also forget something. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 978 Views
Re: You also forget something. Phelix - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1001 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 963 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 880 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 922 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 904 Views
I cannot. That's the point... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 930 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 935 Views
Sorry, but no... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 973 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... Shannow - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1454 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 937 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 842 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 880 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 935 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 898 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 837 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 905 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 971 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 905 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 984 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1004 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1068 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1005 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 983 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 910 Views
Explain one thing to me... Shannow - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 925 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 542 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. Shannow - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 885 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 935 Views
Can you provide the quote? fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 844 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1024 Views
which is also suspect darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 946 Views
No it's not Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 918 Views
we're in agreement darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 868 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 948 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 917 Views
I don't think it's a lie BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 969 Views
Agreed Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 924 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 905 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 880 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 928 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 983 Views
I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 976 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 950 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 930 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 961 Views
Why are you entertaining this? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 940 Views
The other poster showed no proof that RJ's math was wrong. Read what he said again! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:09:49 PM 585 Views
Verin's circle matched Granedal dude. And average strength does not mean great strength. fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:07:51 PM 951 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 954 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 955 Views
of course it's about skill darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 943 Views
Not it isn't! Sidious - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 974 Views
If she was only thinking about strength why then didn't she have a plan to add Sheriam darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 07:09:08 PM 896 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... everynametaken - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1055 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. Heiko - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1178 Views
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