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Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder Send a noteboard - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM
I'll quote the wiki article on normal distribution/bell curve distribution just so there is no confusion on this:

Parameter ? is called the mean, and it determines the location of the peak of the density function. Point x = ? is at the same time the mean, the median and the mode of normal distribution.

Is that clear?

Now, RJ very very clearly said that all, I repeat ALL, channelers are distributed in a bell curve. Very clearly, people like Rand are not excluded from this distribution.

Therefore, if you're going to take Rand as the theoretical maximum in OP strength, and someone like Morghase as the theoretical minimum, the range of the bell curve will be from Morghase to Rand.

We have arbitrarily used strengths from 1 to 100 to designate the Morghase to Rand range. You can choose 2 to 947, for all I care, but the fact remains that no matter how you want to interpret the text, no matter how you want to curve your hand around your head to touch your nose, the mean, median and mode of this range will be the same for a bell curve distribution.

In a 1 to 100 range, 50 will have to be the median. As wiki says:

The median of a finite list of numbers can be found by arranging all the observations from lowest value to highest value and picking the middle one. If there is an even number of observations, then there is no single middle value, so one often takes the mean of the two middle values.

Thus, 50 is the median. And since the range 1-100 is distributed normally among the channeling population, the mean of the channeling population is also going to be 50. This is a mathematical truth, and there's no other possible interpretation!

The 1-100 is a RELATIVE scale, not an absolute scale and thus what wiki says does not apply. We do not know the standard deviation, so we don't know what exactly the mean is in that scale. It will certainly not be 50, based on the books.

Which means the average woman has an effective strength of 50, which is half of Rand's strength. This also means more women will be of this strength than any other.

Now, you have several options.

You could make the infantile argument that RJ did not have any idea what a Bell Curve was.

You can say that there are tons of Egwene level (50 according to you) channelers out there who have never been discovered, and some mysterious force prevented every single one of these women from finding their way to the Tower for a thousand years.

Or, you can admit that me and Darius are correct, that the strength of 50 reflects the strength of a strong Aes Sedai like Anaiya and that women like Egwene are much rarer and likely somewhere between 60 and 70. You can also pay attention to the very well known fact that it is harder for women to shield men and vice versa.

Me and Darius think that math and RJ's quotes should colour ou reading of the text. This seems eminently reasonable to me, but perhaps you have some explanation that will convince me to disbelieve what math and RJ tell us and instead follow your perspective on the text?
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 8956 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1822 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1780 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1578 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1679 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1248 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1840 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1563 Views
Indeed, and not only that Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1254 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1291 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 821 Views
why? darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1378 Views
Re: why? Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1437 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1416 Views
and yet RJ does Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1331 Views
Re: and yet RJ does darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1186 Views
Re: and yet RJ does Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1248 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1398 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 1162 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 1078 Views
Meh... Sidious - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 1090 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 1151 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1444 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1371 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1328 Views
Let's work with your figures... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1211 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1204 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 789 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1306 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1326 Views
the obvious answer darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1166 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1207 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Logain - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 1158 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1341 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1433 Views
I think all the main characters were forced Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1304 Views
agreed! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1223 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1230 Views
What? Where? *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1281 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1230 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1173 Views
Don't links amplify stength? BlackAdder - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 1135 Views
The opposite, actually. Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1222 Views
Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength Logain - 17/12/2009 07:46:55 PM 1130 Views
Re: Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:55:38 PM 1342 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Logain - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1376 Views
It means even Moghedien is vastly stronger than the average modern Aes Sedai... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:48:09 PM 1401 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1275 Views
Agreed! *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 705 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1391 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1304 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1515 Views
uhm.... yes she knows Oberonus - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1364 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1238 Views
yup *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 652 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1311 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1504 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1264 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1245 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1230 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1227 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? Logain - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 1175 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 1140 Views
Elayne says Egwene was at her full strength in TSR, and thus was stronger than she currently was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:25:31 PM 1118 Views
Elayne says Egwene was forced and was thus currently stronger darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:51:28 PM 1137 Views
Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 11:23:20 PM 1138 Views
Re: Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:25:31 PM 1183 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* Cannoli - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 720 Views
I'll check *NM* Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 670 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... Shannow - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1280 Views
No people just interpret things differently darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 1081 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 1033 Views
I think they are secretly just trying to make Lanfear appear that much stronger *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM 640 Views
You also forget something. Phelix - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 1138 Views
Re: You also forget something. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 1143 Views
Re: You also forget something. Phelix - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1163 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 1144 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 1053 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 1088 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 1075 Views
I cannot. That's the point... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 1130 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 1147 Views
Sorry, but no... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 1147 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... Shannow - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1636 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 1128 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 1018 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 1068 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 1128 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 1057 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 1023 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 1106 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 1117 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 1033 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 1208 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1177 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1233 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1198 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 1164 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 1067 Views
Explain one thing to me... Shannow - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 1102 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 612 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. Shannow - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 1060 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 1098 Views
Can you provide the quote? fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 1014 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1205 Views
which is also suspect darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 1117 Views
No it's not Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 1085 Views
we're in agreement darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 1047 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 1123 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 1086 Views
I don't think it's a lie BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 1127 Views
Agreed Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 1079 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 1073 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 1039 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 1107 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 1158 Views
I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 1167 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 1171 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 1112 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 1152 Views
Why are you entertaining this? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 1111 Views
The other poster showed no proof that RJ's math was wrong. Read what he said again! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:09:49 PM 648 Views
Verin's circle matched Granedal dude. And average strength does not mean great strength. fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:07:51 PM 1129 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 1113 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 1147 Views
of course it's about skill darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 1132 Views
Not it isn't! Sidious - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 1161 Views
If she was only thinking about strength why then didn't she have a plan to add Sheriam darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 07:09:08 PM 1066 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... everynametaken - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1224 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. Heiko - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1347 Views
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