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This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... Shannow Send a noteboard - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM
Recent revelations one One Power strength have created questions as to the relative strength in the Power of certain characters. Although we had a debate on this last week, I've had some time to go research the topic and gather my ideas on the topic.

How strong is Nynaeve compared to her friends, and how strong are they compared to Cadsuane, the strongest woman in the Tower?

Nynaeve

It's always been difficult to put a value on Nynaeve's strength, especially because she's been growing in power, had a block for a large part of the series, and is generally self-effacing. We've also had examples of channelers who are definitely stronger than her, in the form of Alivia and Sharina.

What's clear from Brandon's answers on Nynaeve is that is close to as strong as is possible in saidar. There are only six women who are of greater strength, and although this may span more than one level above her, she is very high up indeed. RJ pretty much equated the highest male and female in power, and therefore Lanfear is comparable to Lews Therin to some degree, if not exactly. For this reason, it's fair to extrapolate that Nynaeve is not too much weaker than Rand in the Power. IMO she's not too close to him either. Alivia is said to be considerably stronger than Nynaeve in strength in WH. Furthermore, Lanfear in a weakened state in the form of Cyndane still exceeds Graendal in strength, and that is a strong pointer to the fact that some greater levels do exist above Nynaeve, if Graendal was indeed one of the stronger women among the Forsaken. We also know from WH (Ideas of Importance) that the Seafolk made a circle of six to beat Nynaeve down if her anger got the better of her after they humiliated her. It's a strong parallel to six women's inability to overwhelm Rand, showing that he's that extra step higher. We also know that two failed against Nynaeve, and that Liandrin thought three could take on Moghedien.

For this reason, Nynaeve is probably 80-90% as strong as Rand - say 85%. You'd probably find Lanfear close to Rand, or slightly weaker, Cyndane at 95%, and Graendal at 90%, with Semirhage and Mesaana at 80-85%.

Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha

I've always believed that they were much weaker than Nynaeve in strength. According to RJ, they are a level below Nynaeve. I'd estimate their power to be about half that of Rand's, or 50%.

Compared to Nynaeve we have the following quotes...

TFOH (Ripped Away) - The amount of saidar that Nynaeve had drawn into herself was amazing.

TSR (Playing with Fire) - With so many exclaiming over their strength – everyone said she and Elayne would be among the strongest Aes Sedai, if not the strongest, in a thousand years or more – she had just assumed they were as strong as he. Near to it, at least. She had just been rudely disabused. Perhaps Nynaeve could come close if she was angry enough…

TGH (Summoned) - … Nynaeve was the Wisdom in their village … Once she gains conscious control of what she does without knowing, she will be as strong as any in Tar Valon. With training, she will shine like a bonfire beside the candles of Egwene and Elayne.

The first quote shows Elayne's surprise at Nynaeve's strength. The second is Egwene's fear of Rand's strength and her thoughts that maybe Nynaeve could match him - which is a clear indicator that Nynaeve is much stronger than Elayne/Egwene. Moiraine's opinion in the last quote is also very specific.

Later in the series Egwene states... ACoS (The Figurehead) - Moghedien has a good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing …

We also know from Moghedien in ACoS (Mindtrap), that Moghedien was considered to be too weak to be noticed by very strong opponents in the War of Power, until she killed them. This is more than confirmed by Nynaeve's ability to match her in strength as early as TSR, and Egwene's own personal opinion on her relative strength to Moghedien's. We also know from Graendal that Cyndane is 'so much stronger' than Moghedien.

Detractors of Nynaeve's strength refer to her inability to shield Elayne in ACoS (Swoven Night). However, I consider this to be a failure of evidence on many levels...
- Nynaeve has shielded much stronger opponents while they held their maximum.
- Nynaeve lashed out with a reflex and wasn't concentrating.
- The chance that Elayne was holding all her potential at that stage to weave an illusion is not high, which is proof of Nynaeve's massive failure rather than her inability to do this task.

In TFoH, Egwene told Rand that he is probably stronger than she and Aviendha combined, although none of the channelers had reached their potential, it shows that Egwene's strength is not neglible compared to Rand's, if she combines it with her friend. It's paralleled to Egwene's comment that she wouldn't like to face the Forsaken males even if linked with Romanda and Lelaine. In KoD Egwene estimates that she could overcome five Sisters who were not holding the Power, but once they did hold it, she would have no chance.

Cadsuane

Cadsuane is the strongest Sister in the Tower. However, her strength probably isn't all that great. Initially it seems that she is very strong, with an introductory quote of...

ACoS (Diamonds and Stars) - Once Cadsuane Melaidhrin had been the standard by which every new entry into the novice books was judged. Until Elayne Trakand, none had come to the White Tower in her lifetime who could match that standard, much less surpass it…”

and...

NS (An Arrival) - A number of women were stronger than she [Moiraine], but only one [Cadsuane] could be as much stronger as this one… “Meilyn is considerably older. When she and I are gone, that leaves Kerene the strongest… From Kerene, it’s a sharp drop to the next five. Five once this child and the Sanche girl reach their potential.”

However, it seems that this sharp drop from Kerene to Moiraine isn't too great...

ACoS (Diamonds and Stars) - The woman did not stand that far above her [Merana]. Not really. Just higher than any other sister.

We also know from the cleansing of saidin that Cadsuane was drawing more saidar than Elza and Merise combined, and this made Elza believe that Cadsuane was using an angreal, which she was. This indicates that Cadsuane is probably weaker than two combined Aes Sedai. In contrast, we have a quote from Aviendha in TFOH which already states that Egwene is strong enough in saidar to overwhelm both Amys and Melaine together. Amys is as strong as Moiraine in one quote and as strong as Sheriam in another. Melaine has less strength. This already implies that Egwene is very much stronger than Cadsuane. Once again, I don't believe that Cadsuane's strength is greater than 30 compared to Egwene/Elayne's strength of 50.

I haven't included everything because I think it can be added if debates do occur, but overall, my strength tree for these females is...

- Nynaeve - 85 (percent of maximum, al'Thor at 100)
- Egwene/Elayne - 50
- Cadsuane - 30

Other numbers...
- Lanfear - 95 - 100
- Cyndane - 95
- Graendal - 90
- Semirhage - 80
- Mesaana - 75
- Moghedien - 60
- Bode - 45
- Moiraine - 25
- Aes Sedai - 15-25



Egwene says she has no hope against Moghedien. Matter settled then.

But wait, the Egwene supporters say she is not a trustworthy source on this topic.

How do you argue against that?

There are reasons why Egwene has always been placed significantly lower than the lowest Forsaken class. It is a weight of evidence, provided by RJ, because he wanted to create this impression. If he wanted to show Egwene as someone close to Forsaken strength, he would have contrived situations where this strength can be demonstrated. Instead, EVERY quote he gives us contributes to a different picture.

Moiraine calls Egwene a candle next to Nynaeve's bonfire.

An undeveloped Rand, FAR from his potential and hardly able to channel properly, handles Egwene and Elayne together like a mastiff shaking some puppies by the neck. RJ didn't have to give us a scene where their strengths are so drastically contrasted, but he chose to.

Sure Elayne was not at her full potential, but Egwene was forced by the Seanchan, and therefore a heck of a lot closer to her full potential than Rand was to his. Rand could hardly hold the Source reliable at that point.

Lanfear swats Egwene and Aviendha together out of her way like flies.

Egwene states categorically that she has no hope against Moghedien, the weakest of the Forsaken.

Egwene says that she, Lelaine and Romanda would probably not be strong enough to counter a male Forsaken.

The list goes on and on. I quote the above straight out of memory, but I'm sure there's plenty more.

But hey, if they don't even believe Egwene herself when she says she has no chance against the weakest of the Forsaken, then no quote is going to convince them.
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 8261 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1598 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1586 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1392 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1508 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1078 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1486 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1366 Views
Indeed, and not only that - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1071 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1144 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 751 Views
why? - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1193 Views
Re: why? - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1268 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1236 Views
and yet RJ does - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1145 Views
Re: and yet RJ does - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1023 Views
Re: and yet RJ does - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1115 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1229 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 972 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 926 Views
Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 933 Views
Re: Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 981 Views
Re: Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1242 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1192 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1101 Views
Let's work with your figures... - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1037 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1031 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 710 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1132 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1162 Views
the obvious answer - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1021 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1045 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 978 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1157 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1232 Views
I think all the main characters were forced - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1139 Views
agreed! - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1053 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1062 Views
What? Where? *NM* - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1121 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1041 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1020 Views
Don't links amplify stength? - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 957 Views
The opposite, actually. - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1060 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1191 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1091 Views
Agreed! *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 631 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1167 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1119 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1346 Views
uhm.... yes she knows - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1184 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1070 Views
yup *NM* - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 587 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1148 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1337 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1088 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1027 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1056 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1063 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 988 Views
agreed - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 951 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 637 Views
I'll check *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 606 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1115 Views
No people just interpret things differently - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 921 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 865 Views
You also forget something. - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 954 Views
Re: You also forget something. - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 978 Views
Re: You also forget something. - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1003 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 963 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 880 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 922 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 904 Views
I cannot. That's the point... - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 931 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 935 Views
Sorry, but no... - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 974 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1456 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 937 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 843 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 881 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 936 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 898 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 837 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 905 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 971 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 905 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 985 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1005 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1068 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1005 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 983 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 910 Views
Explain one thing to me... - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 926 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 542 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 885 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 937 Views
Can you provide the quote? - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 845 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1024 Views
which is also suspect - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 947 Views
No it's not - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 919 Views
we're in agreement - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 869 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 949 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 917 Views
I don't think it's a lie - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 970 Views
Agreed - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 924 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 905 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 880 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 928 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 985 Views
I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 976 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 950 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 931 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 963 Views
Why are you entertaining this? - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 940 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 954 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 955 Views
of course it's about skill - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 945 Views
Not it isn't! - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 974 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1055 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1178 Views

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