Active Users:1502 Time:19/12/2024 11:32:27 AM
Let's work with your figures... Shannow Send a noteboard - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM
I agree that the bottom rung of AS are vastly weaker than the top tiers. I just think the main characters in the series are much closer to the top than to the bottom.

Nynaeve is in the top 1% of all women in strength, I'd even postulate that the female forsaken could all be in the top 10% with very little difference in total strength... I won't claim I think that's a fact, there's enough evidence to show that there could be as much as a 15% spread if you include Moghedien.

If there was all that much difference between Lanfear, Graendal and Mesaana it would have been noted by the BA women who have felt their strength. Sheriam only notes that there is a "very strong" woman outside of her tent, but she doesn't know which woman it is so IMO their strengths are close enough to be difficult to judge between them. If Mesaana was 20% lower than Graendal Sheriam would realize which FS was standing outside. Likewise, Alviarin notes that Graendal and Lanfear both allowed her to feel their strength, but rather than postulate that Mesaana must be weaker, she immediately jumps to Mesaana is posing as an AS.

Elayne's potential is probably about 25% weaker than this level (90), which puts her around a 65... Cadsuane another 15% below that would make her about a 55, Moiraine 15% below that makes her about a 45... then the smaller levels between AS start, Sheriam could be a 40 (10% less than Moiraine)... but by the time you get down to the bottom level AS you are at about a 15 (Daigian could be a 10), but there.


Logain is able to break free from 5 average Aes Sedai. Egwene is about 2.5 times as strong as an average Aes Sedai. So that means that Logain could break free from Egwene and Elayne combined (both at full strength).

In order to break free from a shield, you have to be MUCH stronger than the strength of the channelers holding the shield. So that means Logain has to be significantly stronger than the EFFECTIVE strength of Egwene and Elayne combined (both at full strength).

So, if Egwene is at 65 and Elayne is at 65, then that puts them together at more than 120. And for Logain to be able to break free from that would mean he has to be MUCH stronger than their combined strength. And I'm talking about his EFFECTIVE strength, versus their EFFECTIVE strength.

So EFFECTIVELY, a male Forsaken channeler has to be more than twice as strong as Egwene.

And since Lanfear is effectively equal to a top male Forsaken, Lanfear has to be more than twice as strong as Egwene in ABSOLUTE terms (in other words, in terms of brute strength alone).

So if you put Lanfear at 100, then Egwene has to be below 50. In fact, a strength of 40-45 fits the evidence perfectly.

45 would also make Egwene stronger than Amys and Melaine combined - one who is of Moiraine strength and the other who is of average strength.
Reply to message
The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 8261 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1598 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1586 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1392 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1508 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1078 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1486 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1366 Views
Indeed, and not only that - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1071 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1144 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 751 Views
why? - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1193 Views
Re: why? - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1268 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1236 Views
and yet RJ does - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1145 Views
Re: and yet RJ does - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1023 Views
Re: and yet RJ does - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1115 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1229 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 972 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 926 Views
Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 933 Views
Re: Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 981 Views
Re: Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1241 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1192 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1100 Views
Let's work with your figures... - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1037 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1031 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 710 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1132 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1161 Views
the obvious answer - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1021 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1045 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 978 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1157 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1231 Views
I think all the main characters were forced - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1138 Views
agreed! - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1053 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1062 Views
What? Where? *NM* - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1121 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1041 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1019 Views
Don't links amplify stength? - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 957 Views
The opposite, actually. - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1060 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1191 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1091 Views
Agreed! *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 631 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1167 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1119 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1345 Views
uhm.... yes she knows - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1184 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1070 Views
yup *NM* - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 587 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1148 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1337 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1088 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1027 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1056 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1063 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 988 Views
agreed - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 951 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 637 Views
I'll check *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 606 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1114 Views
No people just interpret things differently - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 921 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 865 Views
You also forget something. - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 954 Views
Re: You also forget something. - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 978 Views
Re: You also forget something. - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1002 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 963 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 880 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 922 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 904 Views
I cannot. That's the point... - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 931 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 935 Views
Sorry, but no... - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 974 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1455 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 937 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 843 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 881 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 936 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 898 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 837 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 905 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 971 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 905 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 985 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1005 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1068 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1005 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 983 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 910 Views
Explain one thing to me... - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 926 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 542 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 885 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 936 Views
Can you provide the quote? - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 845 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1024 Views
which is also suspect - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 947 Views
No it's not - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 919 Views
we're in agreement - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 869 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 949 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 917 Views
I don't think it's a lie - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 970 Views
Agreed - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 924 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 905 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 880 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 928 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 984 Views
I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 976 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 950 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 931 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 963 Views
Why are you entertaining this? - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 940 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 954 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 955 Views
of course it's about skill - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 943 Views
Not it isn't! - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 974 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1055 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1178 Views

Reply to Message