Active Users:813 Time:19/12/2024 11:07:08 AM
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules
Fair enough but the problem is... Shannow Send a noteboard - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM

I take it that when you're comparing the likes of Egwene and Aviendha to Rand, you are comparing their effective strengths, in other words, what they can accomplish with the Power compared to what Rand can accomplish. Effectively balancing out the males' greater strength with the females' greater dexterity.

Yip

That would partly account for the incredibly high placing you assign to the women compared to Rand. Partly, but not completely.

Lews Therin states that no three women could shield him unless they were as strong as Semirhage or Mesaana. It is generally estimated that you have to exceed someone's strength by about 50% to comfortably shield him if he is already holding the Power. If you exceed his strength by less than that, you can still shield him, but it just grows progressively more difficult until it eventually becomes impossible.


That generally estimated figure has no real academic support. All we know is that you have to much stronger to shield someone. When Lanfear wanted to capture Rand, she arranged for a circle of Rahvin, Graendal and herself to cut him off. Rand, like Lanfear, is merely talking about absolute values against which he has no chance. Lanfear by herself was almost getting shields through with Rand. It would take little more to cause him serious trouble. He even says that three women shouldn't be a problem unless one of them is Moghedien or Semirhage.

That means that two average Forsaken females cannot shield Lews Therin. Therefore the effective combined strength of Semirhage and Mesaana together cannot be close to 50% greater than Lews Therin's strength. If their combined effective strength even approximated 150, they'd still have a chance of shielding Lews Therin, they just wouldn't succeed every time. So I would say that a combined effective strength of around 120-130 is the maximum range for Lews Therin to be so confident in his prediction.


The 50% thing is erroneous. I don't know where you got it from. If three women of Semirhage's strength go for Rand it will equal 240 and he'll be in serious trouble, and perhaps have no chance. It will be similar to Cyndane's duel against Alivia.

Now I'm unsure how much to take away for the linking loss, as there is the argument of added precision which has been demonstrated by circles, but let's say you lose 10% of the strength of a circle due to linking. That means that Semirhage and Mesaana together cannot be more than 140 in strength. Putting them at about 70% of Rand's strength - in EFFECTIVE STRENGTH terms. That means they are probably around half as strong as Rand in the volume of the Power they can draw, but their added dexterity brings them up to about 70% of his strength. Or rather 75% for Semirhage and say 65% for Mesaana.

And according to Sanderson, Semirhage and Nynaeve are VERY close in strength. So close that he wasn't 100% sure that Nynaeve was the stronger. It sounds a lot like the Nynaeve/Talaan situation in terms of their closeness.


They may have similar strengths, true.

This would also allow for the necessary levels above Nynaeve for Cyndane, Graendal, Alivia, Sharina and Lanfear to fit in.


There are levels above Nynaeve, but I think there are very few. BS sounds like Nynaeve is very close to maximum when he speaks about her.

So I'd put Nynaeve at 75% of Rand's effective strength, Graendal at 80%, Cyndane at 85%, Alivia at 90% and Lanfear at 95%.


Close enough to mine I guess.

Therefore, my list would look as follows - in EFFECTIVE strength terms:

100 -Rand
95 - Lanfear
90 - Alivia
85 - Cyndane
80 - Graendal
75 - Nynaeve, Semirhage
70 - Mesaana
55-60 -Moghedien

And since Moghedien is considerably stronger than Egwene, I'd put Egwene at about 40-45. This would also make sense for another reason, as a strong Aes Sedai is at about 25, an average Aes Sedai at 20 and a weak Aes Sedai at about 15.

So Amys at 25 and Melaine at 20, together, would equal Egwene, as stated by Amys in FoH or tSR.


Well Aviendha said that Egwene could overcome both of those women, so it sounds like she's even stronger.

Remember that all of these are EFFECTIVE strengths, so in terms of sheer volumes of the Power, the women would be far lower on a combined gender scale, if Rand = 100.


Rand could probably go up to 120 in raw strength, and Lanfear up to 120 in dexterity. It doesn't really matter because effective strength is basically all that matters. Rand needs 6 saidin to make a fireball, and Lanfear only needs 5. The outcome is the same, even if Rand is several levels higher in strength. Lanfear can claim the same with dexterity. Though to be honest, Rand is so skilled and powerful, I think he's the only one who can truly claim to be on 100. I'd put Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred and Sammael at 95-99.


Since we are talking effective strength, it means strength and skill are already factored into the equation. Therefore, you are leaving an incredibly small gap between Lews Therin and the top 6 Forsaken.

To me the top 6 Forsaken might have approached Lews Therin's strength level - on the respective male and female contexts - but Lews Therin has unique skill in the Power - with only Demandred among the top strength channelers who comes close to matching Lews Therin's skill.

In other words, what I'm saying is that Lanfear may be 100 on the female strength list - corresponding to Lews Therin's 100 on the male list. But while Lews Therin is also a 100 on the male dexterity list - which is a freakishly rare occurence - no one on the female side has 100 female strength and 100 female dexterity.

So Lanfear might be a 100 in terms of female strength, but only an 80 or 75 in terms of female dexterity. In contrast, Demandred is a 95 both in male strength and male dexterity.

This unique combination of strength and dexterity is what gives Lews Therin his edge in battle against channelers who are just a hair below him in strength. This is what makes him so lethal. And what made him receive such acclaim, amongst other things.

So what I'm saying is that while Lanfear is off the charts in terms of female strength, there is nothing that suggests she is also off the charts in terms of female dexterity.
Reply to message
The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 8261 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1596 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1586 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1391 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1507 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1076 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1484 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1365 Views
Indeed, and not only that Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1070 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1143 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 751 Views
why? darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1193 Views
Re: why? Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1268 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1236 Views
and yet RJ does Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1145 Views
Re: and yet RJ does darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1023 Views
Re: and yet RJ does Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1114 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1228 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 971 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 924 Views
Meh... Sidious - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 931 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 981 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1240 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1191 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1099 Views
Let's work with your figures... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1036 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1030 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 710 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1131 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1160 Views
the obvious answer darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1021 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1045 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Logain - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 976 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1156 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1231 Views
I think all the main characters were forced Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1137 Views
agreed! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1052 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1062 Views
What? Where? *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1121 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1040 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1018 Views
Don't links amplify stength? BlackAdder - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 957 Views
The opposite, actually. Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1060 Views
Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength Logain - 17/12/2009 07:46:55 PM 969 Views
Re: Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:55:38 PM 1157 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Logain - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1191 Views
It means even Moghedien is vastly stronger than the average modern Aes Sedai... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:48:09 PM 1178 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1091 Views
Agreed! *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 631 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1166 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1119 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1344 Views
uhm.... yes she knows Oberonus - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1184 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1070 Views
yup *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 587 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1147 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1335 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1088 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1025 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1056 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1063 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? Logain - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 987 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 949 Views
Elayne says Egwene was at her full strength in TSR, and thus was stronger than she currently was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:25:31 PM 930 Views
Elayne says Egwene was forced and was thus currently stronger darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:51:28 PM 971 Views
Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 11:23:20 PM 1002 Views
Re: Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:25:31 PM 1004 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* Cannoli - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 637 Views
I'll check *NM* Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 606 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... Shannow - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1114 Views
No people just interpret things differently darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 921 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 864 Views
I think they are secretly just trying to make Lanfear appear that much stronger *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM 569 Views
You also forget something. Phelix - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 953 Views
Re: You also forget something. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 978 Views
Re: You also forget something. Phelix - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1001 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 963 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 880 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 922 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 903 Views
I cannot. That's the point... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 930 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 935 Views
Sorry, but no... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 973 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... Shannow - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1454 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 937 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 842 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 880 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 934 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 898 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 836 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 905 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 971 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 905 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 983 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1004 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1068 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1005 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 983 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 910 Views
Explain one thing to me... Shannow - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 925 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 542 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. Shannow - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 885 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 935 Views
Can you provide the quote? fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 844 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1024 Views
which is also suspect darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 946 Views
No it's not Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 918 Views
we're in agreement darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 868 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 948 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 917 Views
I don't think it's a lie BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 969 Views
Agreed Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 924 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 905 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 880 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 926 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 983 Views
I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 976 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 950 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 929 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 961 Views
Why are you entertaining this? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 940 Views
The other poster showed no proof that RJ's math was wrong. Read what he said again! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:09:49 PM 585 Views
Verin's circle matched Granedal dude. And average strength does not mean great strength. fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:07:51 PM 951 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 954 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 954 Views
of course it's about skill darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 943 Views
Not it isn't! Sidious - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 974 Views
If she was only thinking about strength why then didn't she have a plan to add Sheriam darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 07:09:08 PM 895 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... everynametaken - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1055 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. Heiko - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1178 Views
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules

Reply to Message

Block Quote Paragraph Quote
Formatting
Smiley Codes