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Why does Demandred say: "We" will be ready? Why not "I" will be ready? Shannow Send a noteboard - 15/12/2009 04:06:42 PM
In the discussion about Demandred's whereabouts I and others often suggested Murandy, especially because King Roedran is just gathering an army there. However, some people always give the spontaneous rebuttal then that Murandy is completely unimportant. I think this supposed general unimportance of Murandy isn't really backed up by the text.

Murandy is a Kingdom and much bigger than e.g. Mayene, almost as much land as Tear. There are several noble houses as well. The problem is simply that Murandy was a kind of patchwork, since the nobles didn't really care about the King.

However, if Murandy would be united, it's obviously not to neglect. For example, Gareth Bryne thinks in this context in TFoH, ch.28:
"It was his opinion that Murandy would remain a patchwork of all but independent lords and ladies until the Wheel turned and a new Age came. Murandians called themselves Lugarders or Mindeans or whatever before they named a nation. If they even bothered to name one. A lord who could unite them, and who had Siuan's leash around his throat, could bring a considerable number of men."

So, even an experienced Great Captain considers that Murandy can bring a considerable number of men, if it is united (and that would exactly be Demandred's goal, if he is there).

Besides that, there are many examples in the books, where even the not yet united Murandy is mentioned as an apparently rather important country alongside other similar important countries, e.g.:

"In Saldaea, Murandy, and Tear false Dragons ravage the land."

"Men from every land are already gathering, all eager to be part of the legend, eager to find the Horn. Murandy and Altara are on their toes, of course, thinking it's all a mask for a move against one of them."

"The War of the Hundred Years cut Artur Hawkwing's empire into many nations, large and small. The small were gobbled up by the large, or else united, like Altara and Murandy." (obviously Altara and Murandy aren't considered small nations here)

"It appears that Pedron Niall is conducting secret negotiations, trying to convince Altara and Murandy to cede land to Illian, and thus keep the Council of Nine from invading one or both."

"If the Illianer Companions had not covered the field for the rest of the army to escape Mall's trap, Altara would be a fief of the Children today, and very likely Murandy and even Illian."

"Murandy was neither far away nor unimportant." (from Elayne's PoV)

"North and east. He had to force the lands into peace, whether they wanted it or not. He had a tenuous balance in the east, with Illian, Mayene, Cairhien and Tear all under his control in one way or another. The Seanchan ruled in the south, with Altara, Amadicia and Tarabon under their control. Murandy might soon be theirs, if they were pressing in that direction. That left Andor and Elayne." (from Rand's PoV)

All this indicates that Murandy certainly isn't one of the most powerful nations (e.g. Illian and Andor seem generally more powerful), but it's certainly comparable to Altara, Amadicia, Tarabon or Ghealdan, and thus not unimportant at all.

If one adds then the idea that Demandred was previously additionally behind most of the chaotic Dragonsworn in the countries of the south-west of the Westlands (namely in Arad Doman, Tarabon, Ghealdan, Amadicia, Altara and Murandy), Demandred managed quite a lot, if he also has Murandy as a nation and its King under his thumb.

It's IMO at least not a worse accomplishment than only having Taim & a hundred DF Asha'man at the BT under his control, as other people suggested. This is especially true, if one of the Shadow's main goals is to prevent that Rand unites all of the Westlands against the Shadow and to create chaos.

Finally, I suggest that Demandred might be a noble or general at King Roedran's court (this would explain Demandred's clothes). I think he might pose as a member from House Chiendelna. We know that Luc posed as a Lord of the minor but old Murandian House Chiendelna. Maybe this is a noble house, which was "overtaken" by the Shadow (similar to the Andoran House Avarhin, whose members were killed by Mili Skane, before she took the identity Lady Shiaine Avarhin). Demandred created then a new ater-ego as a member of House Chiendelna as well to infiltrate King Roedran's court. Otherwise Demandred might be a powerful Dragonsworn leader, who was eventually raised by the King to become a general.


Would Rahvin have said of Andor: "We will be ready?"
Would Sammael have said of Illian: "We will be ready?"

I doubt it. The Forsaken don't view themselves as part of the modern nations, which they consider to be little more than primitive barbarians.

So Sammael would say "I'll be ready", or " My forces will be ready." But he wouldn't view his subjects with enough compatriotism to use the collective "we".

So when Demandred said that, it immediately raised a flag in my mind. It sounded like he was referring to other significant individuals. The Ashaman would fit the bill perfectly.

"We will be ready."

So would a group of powerful channelers gathered on the Isle of the Madmen. Or possibly a group of Ayad from Shara.

We will be ready sounds slightly out of tune for an arrogant AOL Forsaken when referring to a kingdom that he has taken over.
This message last edited by Shannow on 15/12/2009 at 04:10:27 PM
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The legend of Murandy's unimportance - 15/12/2009 03:02:16 PM 1103 Views
But it's still a small country - 15/12/2009 03:06:24 PM 507 Views
Again, Murandy might be a bit smaller - 15/12/2009 03:10:11 PM 508 Views
Re: Again, Murandy might be a bit smaller - 15/12/2009 04:44:22 PM 477 Views
The Dragonsworn made chaos in half of the Westlands. - 15/12/2009 04:55:00 PM 725 Views
Agreed, only Sammael, Rhavin and Be'lal really laid claim to nations - 15/12/2009 07:12:17 PM 475 Views
to confirm you - 15/12/2009 10:47:22 PM 479 Views
I'm just not convinced that this would be a coup major enough to earn Demandred DO Kudos. - 15/12/2009 03:06:54 PM 480 Views
As said, controlling Murandy plus chaos by the Dragonsworn in 6 Westland nations. *NM* - 15/12/2009 03:11:25 PM 210 Views
well no, arad doman and tarabon were not his.... *NM* - 15/12/2009 03:57:27 PM 217 Views
Umm.., care to elaborate? *NM* - 15/12/2009 04:10:15 PM 208 Views
I was pretty sure that the Dragonsworn as a fighting force were destroyed. - 15/12/2009 04:07:38 PM 434 Views
But the Dragonsworn caused much chaos everywhere they were through the series... - 15/12/2009 04:28:42 PM 415 Views
But that's not the Shadow's aim. - 15/12/2009 06:32:38 PM 436 Views
I have always said that Demandred is loosely based on Hannibal Barca... - 15/12/2009 04:29:22 PM 502 Views
Those a pretty flimsy conformities, IMO... - 15/12/2009 04:53:04 PM 453 Views
Of course.. - 15/12/2009 05:06:04 PM 437 Views
The Seanchan have elephants too ... S'redit I think they call them - 16/12/2009 12:04:40 AM 493 Views
Yes, but with so many Trollocs who needs vast armies of men? - 15/12/2009 07:15:08 PM 435 Views
Re: I'm just not convinced that this would be a coup major enough to earn Demandred DO Kudos. - 15/12/2009 08:15:05 PM 505 Views
Re: I'm just not convinced that this would be a coup major enough to earn Demandred DO Kudos. - 15/12/2009 08:28:02 PM 417 Views
But this has been going on since at least aCoS - 16/12/2009 12:07:08 AM 415 Views
Re: But this has been going on since at least aCoS - 16/12/2009 03:01:00 PM 458 Views
well, it's not like the Forsaken have been particularly impressive thus far - 16/12/2009 06:51:38 PM 408 Views
It's about the impact of action. Timing. - 15/12/2009 10:53:03 PM 417 Views
Why does Demandred say: "We" will be ready? Why not "I" will be ready? - 15/12/2009 04:06:42 PM 577 Views
Well... - 15/12/2009 04:22:57 PM 460 Views
Re: Why does Demandred say: "We" will be ready? Why not "I" will be ready? - 15/12/2009 07:59:16 PM 447 Views
It is insignificant. - 15/12/2009 10:49:20 PM 419 Views
It's importance lies in it's strategic location. - 16/12/2009 04:46:20 AM 423 Views
I think some Murandians might mention Trollocs gathering there. - 16/12/2009 07:05:29 AM 447 Views
what if they're wearing dresses and lady masks? *NM* - 16/12/2009 09:10:57 AM 209 Views
Do the ladies in Murandy wear masks? I don't recall. - 16/12/2009 09:24:46 AM 432 Views
masks to look like ladies *NM* - 16/12/2009 04:11:07 PM 206 Views
Note to self: Avoid the Murandian ladies... *NM* - 16/12/2009 05:06:04 PM 217 Views
Moridin is gathering the Trollocs in the Blight, as we learn in TGS! - 16/12/2009 12:13:38 PM 407 Views
A Murandian army is insignificant. - 16/12/2009 07:59:54 PM 419 Views
For example, the Great Captain Bryne doesn't agree with you... - 16/12/2009 08:25:19 PM 412 Views
Maybe he's based in an alternate universe? - 16/12/2009 09:26:53 PM 400 Views
He doesn't? - 16/12/2009 11:37:34 PM 396 Views
Re: A Murandian army is insignificant. - 16/12/2009 08:27:28 PM 443 Views
Surely you jest. - 16/12/2009 11:39:23 PM 381 Views
Re: Surely you jest. - 17/12/2009 06:35:57 AM 404 Views
Well that depends. - 17/12/2009 08:33:12 PM 409 Views
As said, it's additional chaos and strife. - 16/12/2009 12:01:05 PM 834 Views
Its illogical to assume that Westlanders... - 16/12/2009 12:25:08 AM 425 Views
But that is exactly... - 16/12/2009 11:53:11 AM 426 Views
I agree mostly. It's a common RJ theme - 16/12/2009 07:42:39 AM 466 Views
Honestly, at this point - 16/12/2009 09:07:35 AM 422 Views
In my view... - 16/12/2009 12:10:20 PM 407 Views
Re: In my view... - 16/12/2009 04:08:41 PM 409 Views
Kisman's pov shows Demandred has been involved in the BT - 17/12/2009 06:01:49 AM 507 Views
I think... - 17/12/2009 12:07:05 PM 398 Views
You're right - 17/12/2009 12:33:35 PM 415 Views
Interesting. - 17/12/2009 05:41:20 PM 376 Views
Aran'gar playing Demandred... - 17/12/2009 06:23:23 PM 409 Views
Ah, right that order is certainly out of character with Demandred. *NM* - 17/12/2009 06:40:32 PM 179 Views

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