Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: But if she want's to appear as Sammael, she would surely "act in character"... by Sidious

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Re: But if she want's to appear as Sammael, she would surely "act in character"... Sidious Send a noteboard - 15/12/2009 03:01:40 PM

Because she is adapt at such intrigue and likes to play mind-games (apparently Aran'gar got a similar idea before and posed as Demandred to send the DF Asha'man against Rand). Besides that, Graendal especially likes to wear Masks of Mirrors and could certainly convincingly play Sammael & sent an army (without any tactical instructions, though). I also don't see why Semirhage would play Sammael, since the other Forsaken believe that he is most likely dead (and no one knows that Graendal is especially certain that Sammael must be dead, because she searched his *angreal stash).

The other dead Forsaken were balefired or traitors. Therefore it only makes sense to play Sammael, if you want to confuse the others, if a fellow Forsaken returned.

That doesn't make any sense. If everyone knows that Sammael is dead then it would be ludicrous to disguise yourself as him. She might as well disguise herself as Rand.

The other Forsaken have no idea if Sammael is dead - Graendal only convinces herself of that fact in TGS.

And once again, Graendal is not a general. She doesn't shunt Shadowspawn around. Several sources say so.

Graendal is the only one who KNOWS Sammael is dead. Or at least, she knows the intimate details of his clash with Rand better than any other Forsaken.

She does not know what the other Forsaken know. So it serves her purpose to keep them guessing. As long as she cannot be identified as the one posing as Sammael, what does she have to lose?

As for it not being in her character to "shunt Shadowspawn around", well, the whole point of assuming someone else's identity is to act in THEIR character. In other words, to imitate their tactics. And she's the one who said before that Sammael would see 100 000 men dead if it served a purpose he deemed worthwhile.

It is all just part of Graendal's mindgames to keep the other's guessing. And if she managed to kill Rand at the same time, well, her problem is solved.

If she wanted to lay suspicion on Demandred, why not simply impersonate Demandred instead?

Well this is exactly the reason why it's not Graendal! Graendal knows that Sammael is dead, so impersonating him is stupid. If she wanted to lay suspicion on Demandred she'd be Demandred. Therefore the Forsaken who acted like Sammael wanted to make it seem as if Sammael was disobeying the Nae'blis. Only Demandred, Semirhage and Mesaana have a real interest in doing this and only they don't know if he's really dead. Graendal hates Sammael but she's not about to impersonate a dead man for no gain. Why go to all the trouble to act like a Forsaken general, and send a legion after Rand, if the man is dead?

Clearly is was an error in judgment by one of the Forsaken. It was Semirhage who disguised herself as Sammael to try and make him seem treacherous to the Shadow by disobeying the Nae'blis. Semirhage was obviously trying to get SH to give Sammael the same attention he gave Mesaana when she disobeyed Moridin. She had to choose between Graendal, Sammael, Cyndane, Moghedien and Aran'gar as disguises - and only one of those was a general. She also knew that Graendal and Sammael met regularly so they were basically an alliance in her mind. The trio made a plan to split them, though each probably had a part to play in undermining both Sammael and Graendal (which is why Sammael is furious that Demandred is causing trouble for him in the South).

When Moridin said that Sammael is alive, Demandred responded out of reflex. When Semirhage started probing as to how Moridin knew this, he said that someone sent thousands of Trollocs into the Ways. This prompted Demandred to admit that he'd made a mistake, something that startled Aran'gar. Therefore Demandred knew that Semirhage was trying to kill Rand or weaken him enough for her to capture him later i.e. kill Logain/Cadsuane/Nynaeve. He didn't know that Semirhage used Sammael's disguise and quickly tried to recover her subterfuge.

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Part of a mystery from KoD is solved Logain - 14/12/2009 08:37:45 PM 1464 Views

Only SH can distinguish saidin and saidar Etzel - 14/12/2009 08:46:31 PM 825 Views

I think this Mydraal in question was Shaidar Haran 1.5, was it not? I don't remember. *NM* Marshall - 14/12/2009 08:50:24 PM 306 Views

SH obviously wasn't one of the Myrddraal, who were ordered by "Sammael" to attack Rand. *NM* Etzel - 14/12/2009 08:53:43 PM 266 Views

Graendal's streith gown gives a lot away... Shannow - 14/12/2009 08:53:49 PM 1484 Views

Yes... Etzel - 14/12/2009 09:00:26 PM 669 Views

Why would she be worried about that if she ordered it, though? BlackAdder - 15/12/2009 02:01:10 AM 611 Views

I think she excludes herself in TGS Sidious - 15/12/2009 04:39:18 AM 775 Views

Very interesting argument... Shannow - 14/12/2009 08:49:08 PM 744 Views

Alviarin's Mark doesn't give her control over shadowspawn. RJ told us this in a Q&A. Marshall - 14/12/2009 08:49:50 PM 595 Views

Link please to the RJ quote. *NM* Logain - 15/12/2009 03:31:06 PM 238 Views

Here is the quote: Etzel - 15/12/2009 03:35:34 PM 557 Views

Thanks! So we can eliminate Alviarrin for sure! *NM* Logain - 15/12/2009 03:50:05 PM 226 Views

I always thought it was Demandred kcf - 14/12/2009 08:59:01 PM 979 Views

I saw Demandred's comment to mean the following: Shannow - 14/12/2009 09:07:26 PM 693 Views

I also interpreted... Etzel - 14/12/2009 09:17:19 PM 569 Views

I've always thought it was Semirhage's doing darius_sedai - 14/12/2009 09:39:18 PM 562 Views

I agree Sidious - 15/12/2009 04:44:14 AM 670 Views

In my view... Etzel - 15/12/2009 07:32:18 AM 531 Views

Graendal is low on my list Sidious - 15/12/2009 01:47:20 PM 578 Views

Posing as Sammael is Graendal's modus operandi Etzel - 15/12/2009 01:58:34 PM 593 Views

Re: Posing as Sammael is Graendal's modus operandi Sidious - 15/12/2009 02:21:07 PM 787 Views

But if she want's to appear as Sammael, she would surely "act in character"... Shannow - 15/12/2009 02:42:27 PM 593 Views

Re: But if she want's to appear as Sammael, she would surely "act in character"... Sidious - 15/12/2009 03:01:40 PM 532 Views

I think it makes perfect sense Etzel - 15/12/2009 03:20:28 PM 511 Views

Two things... Shannow - 15/12/2009 02:03:23 PM 563 Views

Re: Two things... Sidious - 15/12/2009 02:24:42 PM 635 Views

Let's look at purpose and method... Shannow - 15/12/2009 02:34:36 PM 614 Views

I don't think it makes much sense that this was a test Etzel - 15/12/2009 07:20:52 AM 580 Views

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<quote id="61280">
<quote id="61276"><quote id="61270"><quote id="61255">Because she is adapt at such intrigue and likes to play mind-games (apparently Aran'gar got a similar idea before and posed as Demandred to send the DF Asha'man against Rand). Besides that, Graendal especially likes to wear Masks of Mirrors and could certainly convincingly play Sammael & sent an army (without any tactical instructions, though). I also don't see why Semirhage would play Sammael, since the other Forsaken believe that he is most likely dead (and no one knows that Graendal is especially certain that Sammael must be dead, because she searched his *angreal stash).

The other dead Forsaken were balefired or traitors. Therefore it only makes sense to play Sammael, if you want to confuse the others, if a fellow Forsaken returned.</quote>

That doesn't make any sense. If everyone knows that Sammael is dead then it would be ludicrous to disguise yourself as him. She might as well disguise herself as Rand.

The other Forsaken have no idea if Sammael is dead - Graendal only convinces herself of that fact in TGS.

And once again, Graendal is not a general. She doesn't shunt Shadowspawn around. Several sources say so.</quote>

Graendal is the only one who KNOWS Sammael is dead. Or at least, she knows the intimate details of his clash with Rand better than any other Forsaken.

She does not know what the other Forsaken know. So it serves her purpose to keep them guessing. As long as she cannot be identified as the one posing as Sammael, what does she have to lose?

As for it not being in her character to "shunt Shadowspawn around", well, the whole point of assuming someone else's identity is to act in THEIR character. In other words, to imitate their tactics. And she's the one who said before that Sammael would see 100 000 men dead if it served a purpose he deemed worthwhile.

It is all just part of Graendal's mindgames to keep the other's guessing. And if she managed to kill Rand at the same time, well, her problem is solved.

If she wanted to lay suspicion on Demandred, why not simply impersonate Demandred instead?</quote>

Clearly is was an error in judgment by one of the Forsaken. It was Semirhage who disguised herself as Sammael to try and make him seem treacherous to the Shadow by disobeying the Nae'blis. Semirhage was obviously trying to get SH to give Sammael the same attention he gave Mesaana when she disobeyed Moridin. She had to choose between Graendal, Sammael, Cyndane, Moghedien and Aran'gar as disguises - and only one of those was a general. She also knew that Graendal and Sammael met regularly so they were basically an alliance in her mind. The trio made a plan to split them, though each probably had a part to play in undermining both Sammael and Graendal (which is why Sammael is furious that Demandred is causing trouble for him in the South).

When Moridin said that Sammael is alive, Demandred responded out of reflex. When Semirhage started probing as to how Moridin knew this, he said that someone sent thousands of Trollocs into the Ways. This prompted Demandred to admit that he'd made a mistake, something that startled Aran'gar. Therefore Demandred knew that Semirhage was trying to kill Rand or weaken him enough for her to capture him later i.e. kill Logain/Cadsuane/Nynaeve. He didn't know that Semirhage used Sammael's disguise and quickly tried to recover her subterfuge.
</quote>

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