Active Users:1241 Time:19/12/2024 01:20:23 PM
Re: Really DomA Send a noteboard - 10/12/2009 11:56:30 PM
You may remember these scenes better than I, but I think that even Egwene realizes that she is going far beyond what Amyrlin's have done in the past. She isn't just getting them to commit to do what they were previously obligated to do. She recognizes that what she is doing is radical.


She realised later that power and authority are addictive, and you need boundaries, checks and balances. That still doesn't make what Egwene's oath of fealty similar to what Elaida's fourth oath. The contexts are completely different, and the degree is completely different. What Egwene did was machiavellian, but not tyranical.

What was "shocking" from Egwene is that she asked for an oath for something which the sisters by Law already owed the Amyrlin: obedience within the confines of her authority. It was insulting. She told them "I don't trust you, so if you want me to take the risk of protecting your secrets you will have to give me proof that I can trust you by an oath of fealty). Implicitely the Aes Sedai are trusted to obey the Amyrlin without that oath. And make no mistake - the sisters she asked an oath from didn't see this as tyranical, they were in part insulted that Egwene implied they could not be trusted, and pissed that she turned the tables on them and gained the authority that was hers in truth but they dreamed of wielding through her. She neutralized schemers and used them to bring into control other schemers who also refused to recognize her authority (the Hall), no more. Egwene's means were uncustomary, and not "nice", but her goal was to make the circle and Hall follow the system. Elaida, on the other hand, wanted to get rid of the system altogether.

Egwene was asking for no more than what any Lord or ruler ask. It's no different from Faile asking fealty from Morgase and co. to place them under her protection, except for Aes Sedai to Amyrlin that oath isn't customary. Siuan considered that Egwene was walking on dangerous political ground for breaking away from custom. But that wasn't an earth shattering move either. If it were, Lelaine would have used her discovery of the facts to raise hell and get the Hall to depose Egwene, or put her on trial. But in truth, revealing it would mostly have embarrassed the sisters who swore and gain Lelaine nothing, so instead she blackmailed the sisters to obey her in turn.

But otherwise, Egwene gave them secret orders that fell under her authority to issue, not unlawful orders. Egwene took the means to gain secretely the authority she was supposed to have but the Hall and circle, that considered her merely a figurehead, wasn't intending to give her. These women had influence and intended to wield political power through Egwene. She took back from them authority which was hers not theirs, by Law. The one request she made of them that fell out of customs (not even of law. I'm referring to her request that they reveal the identities of the AH) they flatly refused to obey, oath or no oath.

Elaida wanted (mused/dreamed about, anyway) was to take the obedience within the confines of the Law the sisters owe the Hall and Amyrlin and transform it into an oath of universal obedience to the Amyrlin bound by the Oath Rod. With that oath she transformed the position of Amyrlin Seat, already powerful but subject to checks and balances, into that of a pure tyrant unbound by Law. From a position similar to that of a monarch to a purely despotic position. She could ask anything of any sister and the OR would force them to obey. She could censure the Hall as she wished with that Oath. She could make herself totally untouchable. The whole tower would be enslaved to the will of a single woman, absolutely.

Elaida was reaching for tyrany. Egwene merely did what she did to gradually gain the authority she was supposed to have in the first place. There's no reason to call her an hypocrite. Not over this anyway.
This message last edited by DomA on 11/12/2009 at 12:00:47 AM
Reply to message
Egwene - hypocrite - 10/12/2009 01:20:24 PM 1462 Views
Re: Egwene - hypocrite - 10/12/2009 01:33:00 PM 982 Views
Not the same at all really - 10/12/2009 02:12:36 PM 728 Views
How do you explain the BA Hunters? - 10/12/2009 02:21:28 PM 656 Views
I agree. - 10/12/2009 03:03:49 PM 632 Views
Agreed - 10/12/2009 04:01:40 PM 526 Views
Disagree - 10/12/2009 04:50:13 PM 604 Views
Just Agree to Disagree *NM* - 11/12/2009 12:53:46 PM 246 Views
What crime? Accepting her unethical promotions? Being afraid of the Hall's injustice? - 10/12/2009 03:51:05 PM 623 Views
Well... - 10/12/2009 03:58:48 PM 616 Views
Don't be ridiculous - 17/12/2009 12:05:46 PM 510 Views
But... - 10/12/2009 05:54:39 PM 506 Views
Let he who has no sin cast the first stone - 10/12/2009 04:34:06 PM 543 Views
Re: Let he who has no sin cast the first stone - 12/12/2009 12:41:33 PM 491 Views
Leane too - 13/12/2009 06:09:31 AM 474 Views
Not really - 10/12/2009 03:06:30 PM 605 Views
Really - 10/12/2009 04:52:10 PM 501 Views
Re: Really - 10/12/2009 11:56:30 PM 605 Views
Sure. - 10/12/2009 05:03:00 PM 475 Views
Actually, I agree. - 10/12/2009 06:47:22 PM 489 Views
I like Egwene - 10/12/2009 07:08:24 PM 539 Views
That really disappointed me. - 10/12/2009 07:29:14 PM 590 Views
funny, I'm more of the mind set that both groups were right - 11/12/2009 12:02:50 AM 506 Views
Not the problem. - 11/12/2009 12:13:26 AM 453 Views
I do agree with DomA and the others on the point that - 11/12/2009 07:13:31 AM 518 Views
Re: I do agree with DomA and the others on the point that - 11/12/2009 08:20:19 AM 577 Views
*shrugs* - 11/12/2009 02:06:47 PM 531 Views
You have no basis for that assertion. - 11/12/2009 07:12:03 PM 516 Views
Not really the case - 11/12/2009 07:20:43 PM 509 Views
They refuse to reveal the Ajah Heads to Egwene, despite her express orders. Doubt Meidani could... - 12/12/2009 09:44:23 AM 588 Views
Ah, true that. - 12/12/2009 07:20:04 PM 503 Views
Who said she wasn't wrong? - 12/12/2009 09:02:55 PM 485 Views
Re: Who said she wasn't wrong? - 13/12/2009 04:16:56 AM 518 Views
Re: Who said she wasn't wrong? - 13/12/2009 08:12:25 AM 557 Views
Re: Who said she wasn't wrong? - 13/12/2009 07:35:10 PM 471 Views
Re: Who said she wasn't wrong? - 13/12/2009 08:27:53 PM 466 Views
Not true. - 14/12/2009 02:41:28 AM 568 Views
I agree with most of your point - 10/12/2009 09:49:18 PM 595 Views
Fealty swearing sisters are no longer around... - 11/12/2009 12:57:49 AM 484 Views
Re: Fealty swearing sisters are no longer around... - 11/12/2009 07:18:33 AM 505 Views
The main differences between the two oaths - 10/12/2009 07:00:55 PM 694 Views
Of course she is a hypocrite - 11/12/2009 05:22:56 AM 516 Views
The same can be said of Nynaeve and Mat - 11/12/2009 07:20:47 AM 525 Views
Probably because they're all human - 12/12/2009 12:43:53 PM 449 Views
- 12/12/2009 04:05:13 PM 539 Views

Reply to Message