Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: She should and could have found a better way. by rAndy aL

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Re: She should and could have found a better way. rAndy aL Send a noteboard - 10/12/2009 12:13:40 AM

So confess to Nynaeve. Or Cadsuane. Or anyone who can arrange for healing. As for the hour of her death, all thats required is that she believe it. As far as she knew, Egwene might be able to save her afterall, the only difference between confessing to Egwene and confessing to Cadsuane is the probability (low with Egwene and High with Cadsuane). There are so many ways to fool the oaths that she should have managed.

The trouble with that is that based on what she already did, she should be able to ask for stilling.

Remember, when she poisoned and drank her tea, she did so fully planning on using that the loophole in the oaths to betray the BA. The thing that bothers me here though is that she was essentially committing an action that she knew would allow her to betray the BA, _BEFORE_ she drank the tea. It was _not yet_ the hour of her death and yet she was able to drink the tea knowing that it would release her from the oath.

I don't really see this(poisoning and drinking the tea) being any different from arranging for being stilled. Both are actions that do not directly betray the BA but do allow that betrayal to happen in the future as a result. Perhaps she might not have been able to tell all, but she should have been able to arrange a situation where she could tell all. That is to say ask for stilling from Cadsuane/Rand without telling them why. They might think it a bit bizarre but if she insisted long enough I figure they would have done it. Cadsuane could well have figured out the reason for it aswell.

Well, the main difference is that drinking the tea allowed her to betray the BA in the hour of her death. Drinking the tea did not release her from her Oath, but it did allow her to use a loophole in it. She did plan to try using the Oath Rod to release herself, but thought it wouldn't work because she would be betraying the DO. Even if she did try getting herself stilled, she would probably be required to collect her letters again.

Heck, dont even ask for stilling. Just lie openly to Cadsuane a couple of times until she caught on. Would not take long until she was stilled after that. At which point she could tell all and produce the books as proof that she was not really a loyal BA.

Well, lying openly to Cadsuane would be betraying the DO's secrets.

Ok fine. Do something else to still herself then. Misuse a ter'angreal. We know that going into the testing ter'angreal warded with power results in stilling for instance. Or some other way. She had plenty of time to learn of a way to still herself. And plenty of time to figure out that stilling releases you from the oaths aswell. It has to be written somewhere in tower texts afterall and Verin was a brown who desperately needed a way. Expecting her not to have learned of this in all her years stretches believability beyond the breaking point.

AFAIK, there is no documented way of stilling yourself, because nobody would actually want to do that. She could misuse a ter'angreal, except all the dangerous ones are locked up. She would have no trouble Travelling in, but would be unable to escape. Besides, the results of misusing ter'angreal can be... variable.

The main problem with everything is that Verin had 70+ years to figure out a way to wriggle out of the oaths. 70 years! And we are expected to believe that this incredibly brilliant brown sister who managed to fool all of the paranoid BA and gather the names of nearly every BA could not come up with a better way out of the oaths other than "drink poison". It is utterly pathetic and stupid.

It was a backup plan. Since the oaths would likely prevent her from deliberately releasing herself or getting caught with the intention of betraying the BA, there was really not much else she could do. There was no way out of the oaths without outside help; she found a way around them.

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I finished tGS last night... and really had to come back to you all.

Phelix - 09/12/2009 02:11:05 AM 1498 Views

You bring up some good points BlackAdder - 09/12/2009 03:20:37 AM 957 Views

What if Verin really WAS Black? Lord Haart - 09/12/2009 03:32:07 PM 778 Views

Pretty much agree with you. Great Lord of Chaos - 09/12/2009 03:21:08 AM 739 Views

Hey, long time no see. Glad you're back! *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 09/12/2009 03:28:50 AM 394 Views

Good to see you too, F-T.

*NM* Phelix - 17/12/2009 09:58:26 PM 274 Views

Silly Verin! She did not need to die. Datakim - 09/12/2009 03:53:23 AM 845 Views

Re: Silly Verin! She did not need to die. TheUltimateReality - 09/12/2009 06:11:02 AM 735 Views

And does she know that Stilling breaks the Oaths? *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 09/12/2009 06:16:54 AM 327 Views

She should. Some of the Aes Sedai who swore to Rand had been Stilled and then Restored by Flinn. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/12/2009 03:18:10 PM 711 Views

Then, wouldn't the BA/Shadow just kill her off? I think it'd be kind of obvious what she did. *NM* Fox and Ravens - 09/12/2009 03:23:05 PM 476 Views

I think that's beyond the BA's capabilities. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/12/2009 03:48:03 PM 593 Views

Doesn't mean they experimented with it. Fanatic-Templar - 09/12/2009 08:48:23 PM 655 Views

Rebels had no reason to research a way to break the oaths. Verin did. Datakim - 10/12/2009 02:00:21 AM 691 Views

You're going at it upside-down. Fanatic-Templar - 10/12/2009 02:33:41 AM 645 Views

Verin should have figured it out Datakim - 10/12/2009 03:03:14 AM 641 Views

Why? Fanatic-Templar - 10/12/2009 04:15:45 AM 637 Views

I was just rereading that section yesterday.... Light in the Night - 10/12/2009 10:52:23 AM 823 Views

It all seems intuitively obvious to me!

Datakim - 10/12/2009 07:58:46 PM 782 Views

Will you please look at your argument? Fanatic-Templar - 10/12/2009 09:40:42 PM 713 Views

Re: It all seems intuitively obvious to me!

Light in the Night - 11/12/2009 07:38:17 AM 703 Views

The damn Oath Rod! Datakim - 12/12/2009 01:32:47 AM 849 Views

Just having motivation is not enough redhand - 11/12/2009 03:52:40 PM 727 Views

Agreed, you also need a working brain. Where did Verin's go? Datakim - 12/12/2009 12:54:17 AM 542 Views

I don't think those would work rAndy aL - 09/12/2009 07:03:38 AM 700 Views

She should and could have found a better way. Datakim - 09/12/2009 07:41:28 AM 701 Views

I agree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/12/2009 03:16:27 PM 561 Views

Re: She should and could have found a better way. rAndy aL - 10/12/2009 12:13:40 AM 658 Views

Re: She should and could have found a better way. Datakim - 10/12/2009 02:30:14 AM 636 Views

Re: Silly Verin! She did not need to die. Gerbeaud - 09/12/2009 08:44:31 PM 732 Views

There is also this small problem of Tower Law redhand - 10/12/2009 08:24:55 AM 536 Views

I always thought Masema was an irritating distraction and was glad he was killed quickly. Tom - 09/12/2009 03:53:44 AM 702 Views

Yes, Masema was a bore. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/12/2009 03:13:40 PM 703 Views

Re: I always thought Masema was an irritating distraction and was glad he was killed quickly. @my - 09/12/2009 04:21:35 PM 860 Views

Agreed. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 09/12/2009 09:25:02 PM 367 Views

Sidious - 09/12/2009 04:44:10 AM 741 Views

Re:

Gerbeaud - 09/12/2009 08:13:24 PM 733 Views

Hey Mark.

Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:00:58 PM 665 Views

Great to see you again! vandevere - 09/12/2009 05:01:01 AM 857 Views

Yep, and Sheriam ended up losing a finger or two in the process. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/12/2009 03:49:45 PM 670 Views

Why do you think we'll never see Mesaana closure? *NM* lord-of-shadow - 09/12/2009 06:07:08 AM 460 Views

Re: Why do you think we'll never see Mesaana closure? TheUltimateReality - 09/12/2009 06:13:22 AM 610 Views

It's great to see you around again!

Seriana Sedai - 09/12/2009 07:06:45 AM 705 Views

:'( j-whitt987 - 09/12/2009 11:29:03 PM 646 Views

Good to see you too.

Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:01:57 PM 633 Views

Re: Good to see you too.

Seriana Sedai - 19/12/2009 06:12:11 AM 612 Views

Hee... gotta love zoos.

Phelix - 19/12/2009 06:18:35 AM 575 Views

Mine added up to many vet bills this week.

Seriana Sedai - 19/12/2009 07:22:40 AM 578 Views

Eeeep! Bills are not good! Phelix - 19/12/2009 07:24:36 AM 585 Views

Seriana Sedai - 20/12/2009 06:46:38 AM 651 Views

LMAO! Phelix - 20/12/2009 08:25:02 AM 482 Views

Seriana Sedai - 21/12/2009 07:41:18 AM 582 Views

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<quote id="59479">
<quote id="59222">So confess to Nynaeve. Or Cadsuane. Or anyone who can arrange for healing. As for the hour of her death, all thats required is that she believe it. As far as she knew, Egwene might be able to save her afterall, the only difference between confessing to Egwene and confessing to Cadsuane is the probability (low with Egwene and High with Cadsuane). There are so many ways to fool the oaths that she should have managed.</quote>

Egwene was on constant forkroot, and would not have been able to Heal her even if she didn't just take a large dose.  This isn't about tricking some oath, it's about tricking herself; which only becomes harder the more carefully it is planned out.  If she thought there was any reasonable chance of surviving, <i>she would not be able to confess!</i>
<quote id="59222">The trouble with that is that based on what she already did, she should be able to ask for stilling.</quote>
<quote id="59222">Remember, when she poisoned and drank her tea, she did so fully planning on using that the loophole in the oaths to betray the BA. The thing that bothers me here though is that she was essentially committing an action that she knew would allow her to betray the BA, _BEFORE_ she drank the tea. It was _not yet_ the hour of her death and yet she was able to drink the tea knowing that it would release her from the oath.</quote>
<quote id="59222">I don't really see this(poisoning and drinking the tea) being any different from arranging for being stilled. Both are actions that do not directly betray the BA but do allow that betrayal to happen in the future as a result. Perhaps she might not have been able to tell all, but she should have been able to arrange a situation where she could tell all. That is to say ask for stilling from Cadsuane/Rand without telling them why. They might think it a bit bizarre but if she insisted long enough I figure they would have done it. Cadsuane could well have figured out the reason for it aswell.</quote>

Well, the main difference is that drinking the tea allowed her to betray the BA <i>in the hour of her death</i>.  Drinking the tea did not release her from her Oath, but it did allow her to use a loophole in it.  She did plan to try using the Oath Rod to release herself, but thought it wouldn't work because she would be betraying the DO.  Even if she did try getting herself stilled, she would probably be required to collect her letters again.

<quote id="59222">Heck, dont even ask for stilling. Just lie openly to Cadsuane a couple of times until she caught on. Would not take long until she was stilled after that. At which point she could tell all and produce the books as proof that she was not really a loyal BA.</quote>

Well, lying openly to Cadsuane would be betraying the DO's secrets.

<quote id="59222">Ok fine. Do something else to still herself then. Misuse a ter'angreal. We know that going into the testing ter'angreal warded with power results in stilling for instance. Or some other way. She had plenty of time to learn of a way to still herself. And plenty of time to figure out that stilling releases you from the oaths aswell. It has to be written somewhere in tower texts afterall and Verin was a brown who desperately needed a way. Expecting her not to have learned of this in all her years stretches believability beyond the breaking point.</quote>

AFAIK, there is no documented way of stilling yourself, because nobody would actually want to do that.  She could misuse a ter'angreal, except all the dangerous ones are locked up.  She would have no trouble Travelling in, but would be unable to escape.  Besides, the results of misusing ter'angreal can be... variable.

<quote id="59222">The main problem with everything is that Verin had 70+ years to figure out a way to wriggle out of the oaths. 70 years! And we are expected to believe that this incredibly brilliant brown sister who managed to fool all of the paranoid BA and gather the names of nearly every BA could not come up with a better way out of the oaths other than "drink poison". It is utterly pathetic and stupid.</quote>

It was a backup plan.  Since the oaths would likely prevent her from deliberately releasing herself or getting caught with the intention of betraying the BA, there was really not much else she could do.  There was no way out of the oaths without outside help; she found a way around them.
</quote>

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