Active Users:230 Time:19/04/2025 04:20:13 AM
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules
It's in the way the Oath is worded darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM
The explanation that an AS can lie if she couches it in sarcasm... this is suddenly much more than a mere loophole in the Oath, it's a pretty massive gap!


So you say "an AS can lie if she couches it in sarcasm." I'm not so sure. My sense is that if the AS was certain her sarcasm would be understood as such then there's no problem, and conversely if she was certain her sarcasm would be misinterpreted then she would be unable to say it.

Can you describe a hypothetical situation in which this ability to use sarcasm could be deliberately used as an ability to straight up lie?



"I will speak no word that is not true"

It doesn't make sense that Cadsuane can speak the words "I hadn't noticed" when clearly she had. Obviously her intent was not to deceive Quillan, but the Oath doesn't say "I will speak no words meant o deceive" ... it's a very explicit statement that an AS should be unable to speak the words if they are not in her belief factual.

IMO Cadsuane should not have been able to say that statement in that way... the Oath should have forced her to word her sarcasm differently. It's much like Siuan in NS being unable to exaggerate her work load to Moiraine. The Oath kicked in there even though it was clear that Siuan's intent was not to deceive Moiraine.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Reply to message
Cadsuane lies! darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 06:10:41 PM 2106 Views
Re: Cadsuane lies! joepo - 06/12/2009 06:18:39 PM 1311 Views
Sarcasm is one thing Ryan - 06/12/2009 06:43:12 PM 1028 Views
I disagree darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 06:51:27 PM 990 Views
RJ has said they're allowed to be sarcastic TheCrownless - 06/12/2009 07:07:32 PM 947 Views
How does that jive with the Oaths? darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:13:21 PM 990 Views
Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying *NM* Deadsy - 06/12/2009 07:53:31 PM 456 Views
Re: Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying DomA - 06/12/2009 08:03:36 PM 1039 Views
Yes, she did state it. Deadsy - 06/12/2009 08:57:47 PM 962 Views
Re: Yes, she did state it. DomA - 07/12/2009 01:39:07 AM 946 Views
Re: How does that jive with the Oaths? DomA - 06/12/2009 07:57:10 PM 890 Views
The Oaths focus on INTENT beetnemesis - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM 945 Views
None of what you describe is an Oath ingrained into your bones. darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 01:52:49 AM 812 Views
It's ENTIRELY about self-rationalization Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 03:59:00 AM 797 Views
^This. *NM* Nate - 07/12/2009 08:23:27 AM 428 Views
Because it isn't a lie DomA - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM 952 Views
I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM 939 Views
Verin didn't say it sarcastically. Darth_Katie - 06/12/2009 08:11:31 PM 782 Views
Really? I never would have known that without you darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:39:56 PM 872 Views
Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic DomA - 06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 979 Views
Quote for you darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:42:52 PM 906 Views
Re: Quote for you DomA - 07/12/2009 01:30:57 AM 832 Views
The sarcasm was for him repeating himself to her. The "remember" is the part she's refering to. Onarishma - 07/12/2009 10:15:06 AM 744 Views
That's why I think this example of sarcasm works as opposed to Cadsuane who makes a false statement darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 03:17:52 PM 809 Views
sarcasm is sarcasm. In both instances their is technically a lie. Onarishma - 07/12/2009 11:28:02 PM 763 Views
Not at all the case darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 11:58:42 PM 856 Views
Do you really believe he waited till the last minute to tell Seonid? Onarishma - 14/12/2009 01:32:37 PM 931 Views
That's the whole point of her being able to say what she did! darius_sedai - 14/12/2009 04:05:24 PM 709 Views
What about the Sheriam thing? Legolas - 07/12/2009 01:49:32 PM 781 Views
Re: What about the Sheriam thing? DomA - 07/12/2009 02:15:25 PM 727 Views
But surely an Aes Sedai can answer a question she hasn't fully heard yet. Legolas - 07/12/2009 03:06:34 PM 897 Views
I actually don't take it as proof. Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 09:00:58 PM 783 Views
Yeah, I thought about that possibility too... Legolas - 07/12/2009 10:21:16 PM 1010 Views
Sarcasm Sidious - 06/12/2009 07:14:47 PM 981 Views
It's obviously meant to be sarcasm, I just don't like darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:18:40 PM 780 Views
Here is what RJ said about it Etzel - 06/12/2009 07:41:18 PM 936 Views
Well I have to say I think RJ made the wrong call with this one *NM* darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:43:47 PM 401 Views
Like my momma used to say... Mat_Cauthon33 - 06/12/2009 11:27:22 PM 816 Views
Your momma is a wise woman. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 07/12/2009 03:14:27 PM 729 Views
Agreed. johnnymack - 07/12/2009 01:45:39 AM 731 Views
You can already drive a truck through the oaths. Does this one additional tiny gap really matter? Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 04:07:16 AM 766 Views
Alys (Moiraine alias) *NM* BlackAdder - 07/12/2009 05:13:18 AM 1091 Views
No, no it doesn't. johnnymack - 08/12/2009 03:31:11 PM 745 Views
Re: No, no it doesn't. Nameless Ashaman - 08/12/2009 04:41:42 PM 771 Views
what do you think a RL lie detector would tell in this case? redhand - 07/12/2009 12:27:07 PM 731 Views
in RL you would get warned by the investigator to cooperate AgentOrange - 07/12/2009 01:04:33 PM 754 Views
But how would the machine reading indicate? redhand - 07/12/2009 07:04:22 PM 763 Views
Usually you're s'possed to answer with a yes or no. It's easy to tell when you're evasive AgentOrange - 09/12/2009 10:46:58 PM 794 Views
Where's the problem? Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 04:18:40 PM 688 Views
It's in the way the Oath is worded darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM 744 Views
Re: It's in the way the Oath is worded Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 05:36:59 PM 764 Views
See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM 960 Views
PS You misread my original quote darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 11:00:56 PM 692 Views
You're so right. My fault. *NM* Shadowkiller - 10/12/2009 12:57:29 AM 678 Views
No worries! It a discussion forum, we're supposed to discuss darius_sedai - 10/12/2009 12:58:39 AM 773 Views
Re: PS You misread my original quote taura-tierno - 28/12/2009 10:04:51 PM 872 Views
Lies, untruths, sarcasm, and meaning Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 07:46:25 PM 825 Views
We are starting understand each other darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 10:09:41 PM 789 Views
Re: We are starting understand each other Shadowkiller - 10/12/2009 01:03:08 AM 727 Views
Completely agree darius_sedai - 10/12/2009 01:23:36 AM 781 Views
Why do you think she *had* noticed the Aiel? *NM* Lord Haart - 14/12/2009 02:02:24 PM 336 Views
because she arrived with Rand and dozens of Maidens, darius_sedai - 15/12/2009 01:02:43 AM 724 Views
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules

Reply to Message

Block Quote Paragraph Quote
Formatting
Smiley Codes