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True, and That Can Be Very Hard to Separate. The Name With No Man Send a noteboard - 09/12/2009 01:14:57 PM
We can debate whether that was deliberate, but debating whether it happened seems redundant.


It's about whether any of these deeper discussions we have about the series are a result of the deliberate planning of the writer. Many writers (RJ included, as indicated by numerous Q&As) are surprised by the depth of the discussion that occurs as an outgrowth of reader interest.

A reader can find many examples of symbolism and parallels if they look hard enough. Entire degrees and courses of study are based around the deconstruction of literary works. Thus I think it is not a matter of redundancy, but a matter of different people seeing different things in a story that very well might be very simple.

Many times, the source of these "deeper analyses" occur as a result of the reader's interaction with the story and not through conscious effort made by the writer.

I see a great many things in TWoT, and others see still more, but that may be unavoidable in so large a work. A variation on the million monkeys theory, if you will. Further complicating things is that it's very easy for an author to subconsciously weave very serious themes into his work.

Tolkien always insisted the Trilogy wasn't allegorical on any level but, while I don't think him at all dishonest in saying that, there are two very strong allegorical relationships, one with his Catholic faith and the other (stronger) with the two World Wars and intervening period of inattentive peace. The Great War has much in common with the Last Alliance which the old Elven leaders led their rude, young but promising allies to victory against a common foe, leaving untold numbers horrifically slain even in victory. Their world began to end there, even as the world of colonial Europe (especially Britain) as dominant began to end with the Great War and America's rise similar to that of the kingdoms of Men in Middle-Earth. They thought it was over, but their watch was neglectful, and allowed evils return, so a final time they fought, but now the young upstarts clearly had the initiative, and once again even victory came at a price, and even as the Elves Europe and Britain entered the autumn of their decline as an ancient but weary world power (or so it must've seemed to Tolkien in the '50s, when a Britain bereft of colonies urged its people to "export or die!") Tolkien tells us none of that was intentional and, even given the amount of revision he had to have done just before publication, there's no way the parallels between the Ring and the Bomb as superweapons to terrible to use could've been deliberate.

So, yeah, I dunno. I believe, without having studied his biography closely, that Jordan was a mature and serious man, just as Tolkien was, and that when he sat down to write a story, it might not be Gilgamesh but his characters will have deeper goals and motives than "It's a spring Saturday night in the Two Rivers, I found Pa's still and the girls are out a-dancin'." Though he did a return to Conan, so maybe. :P I think it far more probable that Tolkien neither set out to write the Bible in fantasy form nor a two hour made for TV movie, but something in between the two. It's worth discussing, even if we don't agree, and any discussion worth having is worth having civilly, especially when we don't agree, so thanks for that. ;) I'll meet you half way and say that some of the things I see may be projected, but at least a few of them I believe too thoroughly worked in and too often revisited to be coincidental or unconscious (the most significant, to me, being that if good becomes brutal enough in fighting evil the difference between evil and good is negligible, and that trusting those worthy is as important as not trusting everyone.)
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The Wheel of Time's Great Themes, Edited to Include Those I See. - 06/12/2009 05:58:08 AM 876 Views
So, What Are They? - 06/12/2009 09:36:56 AM 611 Views
Putting names into a blender isn't the same as weaving together great themes. - 06/12/2009 03:17:05 PM 539 Views
No, Indeed It Is Not. - 06/12/2009 04:37:23 PM 433 Views
Oh my God...trying to use agape in context of this series is overkill to the nth degree. - 07/12/2009 04:12:56 AM 452 Views
It may not provide intrinsic value to you. But for me, yes. - 07/12/2009 06:06:40 AM 483 Views
Jordan May Not Always Execute It Well, But I Believe It's There (Now We Face Details in TGS.) - 07/12/2009 04:28:05 PM 641 Views
Read what Larry's Short History of Fantasy says about Jordan. - 07/12/2009 05:56:03 PM 526 Views
Oh some book says it, so it must be true! - 08/12/2009 05:57:14 AM 406 Views
I Have to Agree With Fionwe's View the Characters Are Deeper. - 08/12/2009 04:19:07 PM 505 Views
I'm done with this thread. - 08/12/2009 06:21:41 PM 432 Views
Goodbye then! *NM* - 08/12/2009 06:45:25 PM 157 Views
Fair Enough. - 08/12/2009 07:02:04 PM 786 Views
Louis La'mour said about himself he wasn't an author so much as a storyteller... - 06/12/2009 03:41:09 PM 476 Views
It's a Popular, If Perhaps Suspicious, Claim. - 06/12/2009 04:55:25 PM 506 Views
Ha. Funny, I feel the same way, and come to the opposite conclusion. - 08/12/2009 08:42:41 AM 439 Views
Amen to that. Lord of the Rings rules! - 08/12/2009 09:03:33 AM 399 Views
I've never been able to finish the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Too boring, with fairy tale characters - 09/12/2009 12:28:26 PM 399 Views
That Is a Great Shame. - 09/12/2009 01:27:44 PM 394 Views
I enjoyed the Silmarrilion though...the part about the Valar and their comparative strengths... - 09/12/2009 01:39:47 PM 385 Views
Tulkas Was All Brute Force. - 09/12/2009 02:48:46 PM 544 Views
That's.. too bad, I guess? - 09/12/2009 08:40:49 PM 387 Views
Arya Stark, yes... - 10/12/2009 08:48:32 AM 398 Views
Re: Arya Stark, yes... - 10/12/2009 04:56:07 PM 427 Views
Seems to me you've inverted it. - 08/12/2009 08:48:07 AM 388 Views
One Way or the Other Their WoT Origin Must Be the Stories We Know (Slight Spoiler Alert.) - 08/12/2009 03:18:30 PM 482 Views
I have no idea what you are trying to say, sorry. - 08/12/2009 08:12:35 PM 403 Views
I'll Try to Rephrase Then (Including the Spoiler. ) - 09/12/2009 12:49:55 PM 402 Views
I don't really see any "great" themes per se, just an enjoyable story, like the pulp serials. - 07/12/2009 03:32:43 PM 430 Views
*Agrees 100%* - 07/12/2009 06:04:31 PM 386 Views
I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes. - 08/12/2009 04:25:36 PM 372 Views
Re: I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes. - 08/12/2009 07:26:30 PM 393 Views
True, and That Can Be Very Hard to Separate. - 09/12/2009 01:14:57 PM 474 Views

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