Oh my God...trying to use agape in context of this series is overkill to the nth degree.
Tom Send a noteboard - 07/12/2009 04:12:56 AM
It's a fun story. A diversion. It has no intrinsic worth other than its entertainment value. Look hard enough and you can find messages in Home Improvement or Barney the Dinosaur.
In response to some of your points:
1. Jordan's world is not Manichaean. This word is misused as an adjective liberally when speaking of the Wheel of Time, and Manichaeism is misconstrued on a regular basis. Manichaeism did NOT envision a world perfectly balanced between two forces, where either could win. It simply recognised two independent sources of power, one good and one evil. The good power in Manichaeism, however, was more powerful and destined to win. Read, if you have questions, works such as the Kephalaia of the Teacher, which was reprinted by Brill
Academic Publishing recently (and which I own).
2. Jordan's world is not Zoroastrian. Zoroastrianism is another religion that is misconstrued and poorly understood by many. While Jordan's world is closer in cosmology to Zoroastrianism than to Manichaeism, certainly, the central elements of Zoroastrianism are missing - fire and water, and particularly the fire temple. The obsession with lies as the foundation of evil is lacking, as are other vital elements of the religion. Just having two forces, one good and one evil, doesn't make a world either Manichaean or Zoroastrian.
3. Ba'alzemon is a corruption of Ba'al Zephon, Ba'al of Mount Zaphon or the Northern Mountain, a mountain prominent in the Lebanon. Lilitu is NOT a Hebrew word. It is an Akkadian loan-word from Sumerian, where lil means "wind". It is related to the divine names Enlil (Lord of the Wind) and his consort Ninlil (Lady of the Wind). In Hebrew this word is rendered lilit. The name has no etymological connection to the night, and no connection whatsoever to Lanfear.
4. Ba'al is only mentioned in the Pentateuch once, in Numbers, where the children of Israel worship the abomination of Ba'al Peor, which is not explained properly but which is a cult of the dead.
5. Lilith has no connection whatsoever with Ishtar. They co-existed in the same pantheon and had nothing in common with each other. Let me repeat: They. Had. NOTHING. In. Common.
6. Metempsychosis does not equate with Gnosticism. Many religions ascribe to it in principle. In fact, metempsychosis is more common than the "one life then final judgment" scheme in terms of number of religions.
7. According to wikipedia, Robert Jordan compared his work to War and Peace in "Interview with Robert Jordan - SFX Magazine #16, September 1996". Yes, it's hubris.
8. Agape is properly a selfless, divine sort of love, and if you're talking about THAT in Wheel of Time you've just elevated it far beyond anything even it claims to. I don't see any compelling description of love of any sort in the series. It's just...vapid.
In response to some of your points:
1. Jordan's world is not Manichaean. This word is misused as an adjective liberally when speaking of the Wheel of Time, and Manichaeism is misconstrued on a regular basis. Manichaeism did NOT envision a world perfectly balanced between two forces, where either could win. It simply recognised two independent sources of power, one good and one evil. The good power in Manichaeism, however, was more powerful and destined to win. Read, if you have questions, works such as the Kephalaia of the Teacher, which was reprinted by Brill
Academic Publishing recently (and which I own).
2. Jordan's world is not Zoroastrian. Zoroastrianism is another religion that is misconstrued and poorly understood by many. While Jordan's world is closer in cosmology to Zoroastrianism than to Manichaeism, certainly, the central elements of Zoroastrianism are missing - fire and water, and particularly the fire temple. The obsession with lies as the foundation of evil is lacking, as are other vital elements of the religion. Just having two forces, one good and one evil, doesn't make a world either Manichaean or Zoroastrian.
3. Ba'alzemon is a corruption of Ba'al Zephon, Ba'al of Mount Zaphon or the Northern Mountain, a mountain prominent in the Lebanon. Lilitu is NOT a Hebrew word. It is an Akkadian loan-word from Sumerian, where lil means "wind". It is related to the divine names Enlil (Lord of the Wind) and his consort Ninlil (Lady of the Wind). In Hebrew this word is rendered lilit. The name has no etymological connection to the night, and no connection whatsoever to Lanfear.
4. Ba'al is only mentioned in the Pentateuch once, in Numbers, where the children of Israel worship the abomination of Ba'al Peor, which is not explained properly but which is a cult of the dead.
5. Lilith has no connection whatsoever with Ishtar. They co-existed in the same pantheon and had nothing in common with each other. Let me repeat: They. Had. NOTHING. In. Common.
6. Metempsychosis does not equate with Gnosticism. Many religions ascribe to it in principle. In fact, metempsychosis is more common than the "one life then final judgment" scheme in terms of number of religions.
7. According to wikipedia, Robert Jordan compared his work to War and Peace in "Interview with Robert Jordan - SFX Magazine #16, September 1996". Yes, it's hubris.
8. Agape is properly a selfless, divine sort of love, and if you're talking about THAT in Wheel of Time you've just elevated it far beyond anything even it claims to. I don't see any compelling description of love of any sort in the series. It's just...vapid.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
The Wheel of Time's Great Themes, Edited to Include Those I See.
06/12/2009 05:58:08 AM
- 878 Views
So, What Are They?
06/12/2009 09:36:56 AM
- 612 Views
Putting names into a blender isn't the same as weaving together great themes.
06/12/2009 03:17:05 PM
- 540 Views
No, Indeed It Is Not.
06/12/2009 04:37:23 PM
- 434 Views
Oh my God...trying to use agape in context of this series is overkill to the nth degree.
07/12/2009 04:12:56 AM
- 454 Views
Jordan May Not Always Execute It Well, But I Believe It's There (Now We Face Details in TGS.)
07/12/2009 04:28:05 PM
- 643 Views
Read what Larry's Short History of Fantasy says about Jordan.
07/12/2009 05:56:03 PM
- 528 Views
I Have to Agree With Fionwe's View the Characters Are Deeper.
08/12/2009 04:19:07 PM
- 506 Views
I'm done with this thread.
08/12/2009 06:21:41 PM
- 435 Views
Fair Enough.
08/12/2009 07:02:04 PM
- 788 Views
If it were just about Jordan I could ignore this last ridiculous comment.
09/12/2009 03:56:47 PM
- 512 Views
Louis La'mour said about himself he wasn't an author so much as a storyteller...
06/12/2009 03:41:09 PM
- 477 Views
Ha. Funny, I feel the same way, and come to the opposite conclusion.
08/12/2009 08:42:41 AM
- 440 Views
I've never been able to finish the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Too boring, with fairy tale characters
09/12/2009 12:28:26 PM
- 399 Views
That Is a Great Shame.
09/12/2009 01:27:44 PM
- 396 Views
I enjoyed the Silmarrilion though...the part about the Valar and their comparative strengths...
09/12/2009 01:39:47 PM
- 385 Views
That's.. too bad, I guess?
09/12/2009 08:40:49 PM
- 388 Views
Seems to me you've inverted it.
08/12/2009 08:48:07 AM
- 389 Views
One Way or the Other Their WoT Origin Must Be the Stories We Know (Slight Spoiler Alert.)
08/12/2009 03:18:30 PM
- 482 Views
I don't really see any "great" themes per se, just an enjoyable story, like the pulp serials.
07/12/2009 03:32:43 PM
- 430 Views
I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes.
08/12/2009 04:25:36 PM
- 373 Views