I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM
If she had said she hadn't noticed outright without any sarcasm then it would be more debatable.
Her statement, sacrastic or not is still a lie... how does this not violate the 1st Oath?
It doesn't matter what words she uses, the binder caught on her intent, on the meaning she was giving her words, which was altered by her tone. Aes Sedai can make a completely false statement if they believe they're telling the truth. It's similar with sarcasm: they are saying one thing, and mean something else. By using a clearly sarcastic tone, Cadsuane made those words mean something else, something which was "true".
She wasn't trying to hide her meaning. By the tone, these words meant something like "everyone in Bandar Eban knows that", which isn't a lie. Not a shred of an attempt to deceive in there. RJ made it very clear the first Oath doesn't hinder Aes Sedai from using sarcasm and exageration at all as long as they don't intend to hide the sarcasm in order to deceive (he gave the example of a blind person asking the colour of something. AS could not answer sarcastically for that, but if the person saw normally they could use sarcasm and say "it's obviously black" - their words meaning "what sort of question is this, you can see as well as I it's white".
In these cases, it's all about intent. They can mislead by omission too, because the oath stops them from speaking out lies, but doesn't force them to finish statements. They mean to say one thing and end up saying another by stopping in the middle.
Aes Sedai can speak hypothetically - in that case they are bound by the letter of the oath: presenting a true hypothesis without regard for the fact they hope it will be taken for a certainty (as Sarene did with Semirhage: it was a chance in a million that Elaida (or Egwene) would be convinced the woman knew too much to be executed, but that chance in a million was enough for Sarene to say "we may be able to convinced her to lessen your punishments" etc.).
I just think that Cadsuane should not have been able to make the statement the way she did.
The issue I have is in the way RJ worded the Oath has nothing to do with intent "I shall speak no word that is not true" literally means that an AS should not be able to speak a word that she does not believe to be 100% true. Sarcasm doesn't fit into that description, at least not in the case of Cadsuane's statement.
Looking at another example from Sionid in Malden, she is sarcastic with Perrin (saying something to the affect of not knowing any of that without him), her statement is all 100% true since Perrin was actually the source of her information...
Cadsuane flat out speaks untrue words that she knows are untrue. The Oath stopped Siuan from exagerating the truth to Moiraine in NS even though her intent was clearly not to deceive. IMO Cadsuane should have been forced a little closer to the Oath ... "Really? Imagine how surprised I must be to hear about all these Aiel" ... Just as sarcastic, and not an outright lie in the mix...
And Verin reveals that she is BA with a statement that is obviously a lie "your dress is green" ... if an AS could say this sarcastically, why did Egwene immediately jump to the conclusion that Verin was not bound to the Oaths?
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Cadsuane lies!
06/12/2009 06:10:41 PM
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Re: Cadsuane lies!
06/12/2009 06:18:39 PM
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Sarcasm is one thing
06/12/2009 06:43:12 PM
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I disagree
06/12/2009 06:51:27 PM
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RJ has said they're allowed to be sarcastic
06/12/2009 07:07:32 PM
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How does that jive with the Oaths?
06/12/2009 07:13:21 PM
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Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying *NM*
06/12/2009 07:53:31 PM
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Re: Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying
06/12/2009 08:03:36 PM
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The Oaths focus on INTENT
06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM
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Because it isn't a lie
06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM
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I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic
06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM
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Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic
06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM
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Quote for you
06/12/2009 08:42:52 PM
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The sarcasm was for him repeating himself to her. The "remember" is the part she's refering to.
07/12/2009 10:15:06 AM
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That's why I think this example of sarcasm works as opposed to Cadsuane who makes a false statement
07/12/2009 03:17:52 PM
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sarcasm is sarcasm. In both instances their is technically a lie.
07/12/2009 11:28:02 PM
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Not at all the case
07/12/2009 11:58:42 PM
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Do you really believe he waited till the last minute to tell Seonid?
14/12/2009 01:32:37 PM
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What about the Sheriam thing?
07/12/2009 01:49:32 PM
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Re: What about the Sheriam thing?
07/12/2009 02:15:25 PM
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But surely an Aes Sedai can answer a question she hasn't fully heard yet.
07/12/2009 03:06:34 PM
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Sarcasm
06/12/2009 07:14:47 PM
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It's obviously meant to be sarcasm, I just don't like
06/12/2009 07:18:40 PM
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Here is what RJ said about it
06/12/2009 07:41:18 PM
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Well I have to say I think RJ made the wrong call with this one *NM*
06/12/2009 07:43:47 PM
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Agreed.
07/12/2009 01:45:39 AM
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You can already drive a truck through the oaths. Does this one additional tiny gap really matter?
07/12/2009 04:07:16 AM
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what do you think a RL lie detector would tell in this case?
07/12/2009 12:27:07 PM
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in RL you would get warned by the investigator to cooperate
07/12/2009 01:04:33 PM
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But how would the machine reading indicate?
07/12/2009 07:04:22 PM
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Usually you're s'possed to answer with a yes or no. It's easy to tell when you're evasive
09/12/2009 10:46:58 PM
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Where's the problem?
09/12/2009 04:18:40 PM
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It's in the way the Oath is worded
09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM
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PS You misread my original quote
09/12/2009 11:00:56 PM
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Lies, untruths, sarcasm, and meaning
09/12/2009 07:46:25 PM
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We are starting understand each other
09/12/2009 10:09:41 PM
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