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I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM
If she had said she hadn't noticed outright without any sarcasm then it would be more debatable.


Her statement, sacrastic or not is still a lie... how does this not violate the 1st Oath?


It doesn't matter what words she uses, the binder caught on her intent, on the meaning she was giving her words, which was altered by her tone. Aes Sedai can make a completely false statement if they believe they're telling the truth. It's similar with sarcasm: they are saying one thing, and mean something else. By using a clearly sarcastic tone, Cadsuane made those words mean something else, something which was "true".

She wasn't trying to hide her meaning. By the tone, these words meant something like "everyone in Bandar Eban knows that", which isn't a lie. Not a shred of an attempt to deceive in there. RJ made it very clear the first Oath doesn't hinder Aes Sedai from using sarcasm and exageration at all as long as they don't intend to hide the sarcasm in order to deceive (he gave the example of a blind person asking the colour of something. AS could not answer sarcastically for that, but if the person saw normally they could use sarcasm and say "it's obviously black" - their words meaning "what sort of question is this, you can see as well as I it's white";).

In these cases, it's all about intent. They can mislead by omission too, because the oath stops them from speaking out lies, but doesn't force them to finish statements. They mean to say one thing and end up saying another by stopping in the middle.

Aes Sedai can speak hypothetically - in that case they are bound by the letter of the oath: presenting a true hypothesis without regard for the fact they hope it will be taken for a certainty (as Sarene did with Semirhage: it was a chance in a million that Elaida (or Egwene) would be convinced the woman knew too much to be executed, but that chance in a million was enough for Sarene to say "we may be able to convinced her to lessen your punishments" etc.).



I just think that Cadsuane should not have been able to make the statement the way she did.

The issue I have is in the way RJ worded the Oath has nothing to do with intent "I shall speak no word that is not true" literally means that an AS should not be able to speak a word that she does not believe to be 100% true. Sarcasm doesn't fit into that description, at least not in the case of Cadsuane's statement.

Looking at another example from Sionid in Malden, she is sarcastic with Perrin (saying something to the affect of not knowing any of that without him), her statement is all 100% true since Perrin was actually the source of her information...

Cadsuane flat out speaks untrue words that she knows are untrue. The Oath stopped Siuan from exagerating the truth to Moiraine in NS even though her intent was clearly not to deceive. IMO Cadsuane should have been forced a little closer to the Oath ... "Really? Imagine how surprised I must be to hear about all these Aiel" ... Just as sarcastic, and not an outright lie in the mix...

And Verin reveals that she is BA with a statement that is obviously a lie "your dress is green" ... if an AS could say this sarcastically, why did Egwene immediately jump to the conclusion that Verin was not bound to the Oaths?
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Cadsuane lies! - 06/12/2009 06:10:41 PM 2007 Views
Re: Cadsuane lies! - 06/12/2009 06:18:39 PM 1215 Views
Sarcasm is one thing - 06/12/2009 06:43:12 PM 929 Views
I disagree - 06/12/2009 06:51:27 PM 886 Views
RJ has said they're allowed to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 07:07:32 PM 853 Views
How does that jive with the Oaths? - 06/12/2009 07:13:21 PM 889 Views
Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying *NM* - 06/12/2009 07:53:31 PM 409 Views
Re: Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying - 06/12/2009 08:03:36 PM 943 Views
Yes, she did state it. - 06/12/2009 08:57:47 PM 870 Views
Re: Yes, she did state it. - 07/12/2009 01:39:07 AM 829 Views
Re: How does that jive with the Oaths? - 06/12/2009 07:57:10 PM 789 Views
The Oaths focus on INTENT - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM 841 Views
None of what you describe is an Oath ingrained into your bones. - 07/12/2009 01:52:49 AM 711 Views
It's ENTIRELY about self-rationalization - 07/12/2009 03:59:00 AM 700 Views
^This. *NM* - 07/12/2009 08:23:27 AM 389 Views
Because it isn't a lie - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM 857 Views
I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM 843 Views
Verin didn't say it sarcastically. - 06/12/2009 08:11:31 PM 693 Views
Really? I never would have known that without you - 06/12/2009 08:39:56 PM 773 Views
Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 874 Views
Quote for you - 06/12/2009 08:42:52 PM 812 Views
Re: Quote for you - 07/12/2009 01:30:57 AM 730 Views
The sarcasm was for him repeating himself to her. The "remember" is the part she's refering to. - 07/12/2009 10:15:06 AM 651 Views
That's why I think this example of sarcasm works as opposed to Cadsuane who makes a false statement - 07/12/2009 03:17:52 PM 705 Views
sarcasm is sarcasm. In both instances their is technically a lie. - 07/12/2009 11:28:02 PM 667 Views
Not at all the case - 07/12/2009 11:58:42 PM 761 Views
Do you really believe he waited till the last minute to tell Seonid? - 14/12/2009 01:32:37 PM 816 Views
That's the whole point of her being able to say what she did! - 14/12/2009 04:05:24 PM 613 Views
What about the Sheriam thing? - 07/12/2009 01:49:32 PM 694 Views
Re: What about the Sheriam thing? - 07/12/2009 02:15:25 PM 659 Views
I actually don't take it as proof. - 07/12/2009 09:00:58 PM 692 Views
Yeah, I thought about that possibility too... - 07/12/2009 10:21:16 PM 911 Views
Sarcasm - 06/12/2009 07:14:47 PM 883 Views
It's obviously meant to be sarcasm, I just don't like - 06/12/2009 07:18:40 PM 681 Views
Here is what RJ said about it - 06/12/2009 07:41:18 PM 836 Views
Well I have to say I think RJ made the wrong call with this one *NM* - 06/12/2009 07:43:47 PM 366 Views
Like my momma used to say... - 06/12/2009 11:27:22 PM 731 Views
Your momma is a wise woman. - 07/12/2009 03:14:27 PM 628 Views
Agreed. - 07/12/2009 01:45:39 AM 639 Views
You can already drive a truck through the oaths. Does this one additional tiny gap really matter? - 07/12/2009 04:07:16 AM 669 Views
Alys (Moiraine alias) *NM* - 07/12/2009 05:13:18 AM 977 Views
No, no it doesn't. - 08/12/2009 03:31:11 PM 636 Views
Re: No, no it doesn't. - 08/12/2009 04:41:42 PM 681 Views
what do you think a RL lie detector would tell in this case? - 07/12/2009 12:27:07 PM 637 Views
in RL you would get warned by the investigator to cooperate - 07/12/2009 01:04:33 PM 687 Views
But how would the machine reading indicate? - 07/12/2009 07:04:22 PM 660 Views
Where's the problem? - 09/12/2009 04:18:40 PM 596 Views
It's in the way the Oath is worded - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM 641 Views
Re: It's in the way the Oath is worded - 09/12/2009 05:36:59 PM 665 Views
See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM 866 Views
PS You misread my original quote - 09/12/2009 11:00:56 PM 600 Views
You're so right. My fault. *NM* - 10/12/2009 12:57:29 AM 573 Views
No worries! It a discussion forum, we're supposed to discuss - 10/12/2009 12:58:39 AM 669 Views
Re: PS You misread my original quote - 28/12/2009 10:04:51 PM 780 Views
Lies, untruths, sarcasm, and meaning - 09/12/2009 07:46:25 PM 729 Views
We are starting understand each other - 09/12/2009 10:09:41 PM 684 Views
Re: We are starting understand each other - 10/12/2009 01:03:08 AM 629 Views
Completely agree - 10/12/2009 01:23:36 AM 687 Views
Why do you think she *had* noticed the Aiel? *NM* - 14/12/2009 02:02:24 PM 295 Views
because she arrived with Rand and dozens of Maidens, - 15/12/2009 01:02:43 AM 615 Views

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