Louis La'mour said about himself he wasn't an author so much as a storyteller...
Shannow Send a noteboard - 06/12/2009 03:41:09 PM
And that really captures my preferences in a nutshell.
I don't read literature. I read a good story. And I want to experience great characters.
In other words, I want to read something that's a visceral experience, rather than an intellectual one.
I often use Martin's work as an example, but by this I do not mean to suggest that his work is somehow less "literary" in nature than Jordan's. In fact, Martin's work is probably even more so. But that's not why I read it. I read for the way he puts you in the moment.
Let's use Arya as an example. I enjoy her chapters immensely, not because of the symbolic meaning of her lifestory, but because she casts some kind of spell over me that draws me in helplessly to experience her ride through war torn Westeros.
I FEEL it when she plucks a worm infested apple from amongst the hanged corpses dangling around it. And I EXPERIENCE her hatred when she goes through her list that goes something like this: "The Tickler, the Hound, Queen Cersei, Ser Jaime, Dunsen and Polliver, Ser Gregor etc...."
It is because it touches the BASE emotions in me. A sense of being wronged. The burning desire for vengeance. The intense love for her family, her pride as a Stark, her fear, all of it.
I contrast this with the sanitized, "goody two shoes", intrinsically heroic and noble characters in the Wheel of Time. People like the heroic Egwene, honourable Perrin and self sacrificing Rand.
In tGS I got the first ever hint about Rand saying that he actually wants to live despite the prophecies of his death. Up to now, he has so fatalistically accepted his fate, and his duty which is heavier than a mountain that it becomes unbelievable.
My biggest gripe is that every good character in the Wheel of Time lives for goals greater than themselves. They deny their own needs and desires almost without fail.
So how can I identify with this character if I read a book to EXPERIENCE the power of saidin, or to FEEL the satisfaction of exacting vengeance on an enemy, or to be immersed in the gratification of setting right a wrong that was done to me?
Instead, he only makes me feel his humiliation when he gets slapped in the face in front of his followers by some old lady.
Arya also got humiliated in such a fashion by a character, but she ended up sticking him with the pointy end. And THAT brought me more satisfaction than when Rob Stark won the battle of the Whispering Woods.
In a nutshell what I'm saying is that by denying the characters these experiences, Robert Jordan is denying me as the reader those experiences as well. And that's why I identify with the bad guys almost to a greater extent than with the protagonists. Because they don't deny themselves, and by extension me as the reader when I am in their shoes.
So I guess I haven't responded directly to your thematic analysis of the Wheel of Time. Sorry about that. But what I have tried to articulate in my own way, is the essence of my experience when reading the Wheel of Time. And the underlying cause of most of my disgruntlement with the series. I'm sure someone else could have worded it much better than me. But that's my take on the whole thing.
I don't read literature. I read a good story. And I want to experience great characters.
In other words, I want to read something that's a visceral experience, rather than an intellectual one.
I often use Martin's work as an example, but by this I do not mean to suggest that his work is somehow less "literary" in nature than Jordan's. In fact, Martin's work is probably even more so. But that's not why I read it. I read for the way he puts you in the moment.
Let's use Arya as an example. I enjoy her chapters immensely, not because of the symbolic meaning of her lifestory, but because she casts some kind of spell over me that draws me in helplessly to experience her ride through war torn Westeros.
I FEEL it when she plucks a worm infested apple from amongst the hanged corpses dangling around it. And I EXPERIENCE her hatred when she goes through her list that goes something like this: "The Tickler, the Hound, Queen Cersei, Ser Jaime, Dunsen and Polliver, Ser Gregor etc...."
It is because it touches the BASE emotions in me. A sense of being wronged. The burning desire for vengeance. The intense love for her family, her pride as a Stark, her fear, all of it.
I contrast this with the sanitized, "goody two shoes", intrinsically heroic and noble characters in the Wheel of Time. People like the heroic Egwene, honourable Perrin and self sacrificing Rand.
In tGS I got the first ever hint about Rand saying that he actually wants to live despite the prophecies of his death. Up to now, he has so fatalistically accepted his fate, and his duty which is heavier than a mountain that it becomes unbelievable.
My biggest gripe is that every good character in the Wheel of Time lives for goals greater than themselves. They deny their own needs and desires almost without fail.
So how can I identify with this character if I read a book to EXPERIENCE the power of saidin, or to FEEL the satisfaction of exacting vengeance on an enemy, or to be immersed in the gratification of setting right a wrong that was done to me?
Instead, he only makes me feel his humiliation when he gets slapped in the face in front of his followers by some old lady.
Arya also got humiliated in such a fashion by a character, but she ended up sticking him with the pointy end. And THAT brought me more satisfaction than when Rob Stark won the battle of the Whispering Woods.
In a nutshell what I'm saying is that by denying the characters these experiences, Robert Jordan is denying me as the reader those experiences as well. And that's why I identify with the bad guys almost to a greater extent than with the protagonists. Because they don't deny themselves, and by extension me as the reader when I am in their shoes.
So I guess I haven't responded directly to your thematic analysis of the Wheel of Time. Sorry about that. But what I have tried to articulate in my own way, is the essence of my experience when reading the Wheel of Time. And the underlying cause of most of my disgruntlement with the series. I'm sure someone else could have worded it much better than me. But that's my take on the whole thing.
This message last edited by Shannow on 06/12/2009 at 03:45:30 PM
The Wheel of Time's Great Themes, Edited to Include Those I See.
06/12/2009 05:58:08 AM
- 878 Views
So, What Are They?
06/12/2009 09:36:56 AM
- 613 Views
Putting names into a blender isn't the same as weaving together great themes.
06/12/2009 03:17:05 PM
- 541 Views
No, Indeed It Is Not.
06/12/2009 04:37:23 PM
- 434 Views
Oh my God...trying to use agape in context of this series is overkill to the nth degree.
07/12/2009 04:12:56 AM
- 454 Views
Jordan May Not Always Execute It Well, But I Believe It's There (Now We Face Details in TGS.)
07/12/2009 04:28:05 PM
- 643 Views
Read what Larry's Short History of Fantasy says about Jordan.
07/12/2009 05:56:03 PM
- 528 Views
I Have to Agree With Fionwe's View the Characters Are Deeper.
08/12/2009 04:19:07 PM
- 506 Views
I'm done with this thread.
08/12/2009 06:21:41 PM
- 435 Views
Fair Enough.
08/12/2009 07:02:04 PM
- 788 Views
If it were just about Jordan I could ignore this last ridiculous comment.
09/12/2009 03:56:47 PM
- 514 Views
Louis La'mour said about himself he wasn't an author so much as a storyteller...
06/12/2009 03:41:09 PM
- 478 Views
Ha. Funny, I feel the same way, and come to the opposite conclusion.
08/12/2009 08:42:41 AM
- 442 Views
I've never been able to finish the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Too boring, with fairy tale characters
09/12/2009 12:28:26 PM
- 399 Views
That Is a Great Shame.
09/12/2009 01:27:44 PM
- 396 Views
I enjoyed the Silmarrilion though...the part about the Valar and their comparative strengths...
09/12/2009 01:39:47 PM
- 387 Views
That's.. too bad, I guess?
09/12/2009 08:40:49 PM
- 389 Views
Seems to me you've inverted it.
08/12/2009 08:48:07 AM
- 389 Views
One Way or the Other Their WoT Origin Must Be the Stories We Know (Slight Spoiler Alert.)
08/12/2009 03:18:30 PM
- 482 Views
I don't really see any "great" themes per se, just an enjoyable story, like the pulp serials.
07/12/2009 03:32:43 PM
- 431 Views
I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes.
08/12/2009 04:25:36 PM
- 373 Views