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Re: I agree with you! Sidious Send a noteboard - 26/11/2009 05:10:22 PM

I just think you are ignoring the evidence from the book that puts what you are calling "higher than average" a great deal more rare than you are giving credit.


But we don't even have an accurate channeling sample to go on. We need a sample of thousands of channelers from the population, which we don't have. The fact that there are three strong women like Elayne who became friends tells me that their strength is unheard of in the Tower, but probably not as extremely rare as they make out. If they tested hundreds of women, they're probably find one or two more of their calibre.

I also think it's inaccurate to call Egwene/Elayne etc merely "Strong". Every shred of evidence in the book puts them at just below the highest echelons of female strength, with maybe a dozen or so women with more strength, out of thousands of women who can channel there are likely to be less than 100 who are stronger, and even fewer (if any new agers) with more skill. It's kind of like saying having a 175 IQ is just "smart" simply because there are a few people out there with a 200 IQ.


I think they are a level below the Forsaken, and that level is pronounced. There's no real evidence that they can compete, even remotely, on that level, and a lot against it. Moiraine thinks that Aviendha and Egwene linked could maybe fight a Forsaken, and Egwene thinks that linked with Romanda and Lelaine she wouldn't match one of the Forsaken. It's a telling sign.

While I generally agree that Lanfear is practically unique, I don't think there is evidence in the books to support your claim that she is "several levels" above Graendal. It's obvious that she was stronger, but other than knowing she is weaker as Cyndane yet still stronger than Graendal we don't have anything to go on. We don't even have conclusive proof that Graendal is the next strongest of the FS, lots of hints, but it's possible Semirhage and Mesaana possess more raw strength (in fact I don't recall ever hear that Cyndane is in fact stronger than either of them), which is the only way I can really see Lanfear being more than 2 rungs higher than Graendal.


Lanfear is at least two levels above Graendal, so 'several levels' is an acceptable term.

Personally I think you tend to make the Forsaken strength spread too wide (between each other). I see them as all very close (with the exception of Moghedien) in absolute strength, but with vastly different skill levels.


I think that there are many levels of strength between them, but that the difference between the highest and lowest (except for Moghedien) is perhaps only 10%, making strength all but irrelevant but measurable.

Semirhage probably being the top of the skilled heap, or perhaps Graendal. I say this because Graendal is unsure that Demandred is more capable than Semirhage in her tGS POV and she has no reason to be lying. In fact I would go so far as to say that Semirhage and Graendal were likely 2 of the most highly skilled women of their age, both achieved the 3rd name, both were world famous in their fields and both caused a great stir when they went over to the DO.


Well I guess the case could be made for Lanfear being extremely skilled by virtue of her working at the Collam Daan, which Mesaana could not. However, it's good enough for me that Lanfear, Semirhage and Graendal were considered the most powerful of the Forsaken females during the War of Power.

Lanfear on the other hand had to make a dramatic announcement that she was going over, and really did anyone care that a disgraced (if very strong) researcher who had no distinction other than being LTTs stalker ex-gf became Forsaken? Moghedien and Mesaana probably barely got notice when the went over... in fact I'd bet Mesaana means "Giver of Detention"


I think it's irrelevant what you were before the War of Power. Having a third name because you gave a lot to a utopian society is hardly something to mention when applying to be a Forsaken.

I don't think there is any evidence that any of the Forsaken feared or even really respected Lanfear all that much despite her strength, oh they were wary of her temper as none of them seem to relish open conflict and they all pretty much hated her guts (of course that's nothing unusual for them), but if she was really so much more powerful than any of the other women they would have been much less likely to openly stand against her, Semirhage clearly makes it obvious that she hates the woman and seems to have no fear at all.


Lanfear was bad enough to become Semirhage's arch enemy. Considering Semirhage is one of the most deadly women alive, it's likely she wouldn't risk confronting the woman she hates so much.

IMO the skill levels (which the FS are clearly more impressed by):

Semirhage/Graendal
Lanfear
Mesaana
Moghedien


With regards to skill, I'd go...
- Semirhage/Graendal/Lanfear
- Mesaana
- Moghedien


for the Men it's less obvious IMO but I'd say:

Ishy/Aginor
Demandred/Sammael
Be'lal/Rhavin
Balthamel/Asmodean

Sadly if Aginor had ever grown a pair he could have gone even further, but his general lack of anything resembling a spine held him back in this unscrupulous lot.


For men...

- Demandred
- Ishamael/Aginor
- Sammael/Be'lal/Rahvin/Balthamel/Asmodean
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
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Is Nynaeve of "very rare" strength? - 21/11/2009 02:53:22 PM 1438 Views
BS said... - 21/11/2009 02:57:58 PM 780 Views
Actually, you are adding a word that isn't there. - 21/11/2009 03:47:48 PM 992 Views
IMO, it's self evident that the female list only contains named characters - 21/11/2009 03:58:33 PM 655 Views
IMO, the above post by "Logain" is trolling and not worth the debating!! *NM* - 21/11/2009 04:01:08 PM 236 Views
I have a valid reason for asking. - 21/11/2009 04:05:52 PM 748 Views
I can assure you... - 21/11/2009 04:47:18 PM 578 Views
Re: IMO, it's self evident that the female list only contains named characters - 21/11/2009 04:09:58 PM 508 Views
I don't know - 21/11/2009 04:17:02 PM 476 Views
I find it unlikely that a super strong channeler would end up being unimportant to the plot *NM* - 21/11/2009 11:54:43 PM 230 Views
This sounds semi-mystical... - 24/11/2009 04:45:52 PM 450 Views
Also, if they were that strong, they would then be important. - 29/11/2009 05:24:35 PM 420 Views
she's in the top 0.1% of channelers we know of - 21/11/2009 03:01:02 PM 538 Views
She's in the top 0.05% *NM* - 21/11/2009 11:41:42 PM 226 Views
so shes also in the top 0.1%? *NM* - 22/11/2009 12:04:00 AM 227 Views
Of course. My figure is more exclusive. *NM* - 22/11/2009 12:23:23 AM 203 Views
Yes *NM* - 21/11/2009 03:56:12 PM 221 Views
Yes, though obviously Etzel is right. - 21/11/2009 04:08:41 PM 614 Views
Re: Is Nynaeve of "very rare" strength? - 21/11/2009 06:00:29 PM 495 Views
So what's the point? Why the quotes? *NM* - 21/11/2009 10:24:37 PM 213 Views
Re: So what's the point? Why the quotes? - 24/11/2009 07:31:37 PM 438 Views
Actually... what Graenal says - 25/11/2009 09:39:05 PM 496 Views
Well... - 21/11/2009 11:44:40 PM 537 Views
I really doubt Nynaeve strength channelers are one in thousand... - 22/11/2009 12:09:15 AM 531 Views
I agree with you! - 23/11/2009 12:48:35 AM 458 Views
Re: I agree with you! - 23/11/2009 03:56:14 AM 496 Views
Re: I agree with you! - 25/11/2009 05:50:06 PM 486 Views
Re: I agree with you! - 26/11/2009 05:10:22 PM 589 Views
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Hmmm... - 26/11/2009 10:38:44 PM 489 Views
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Re: Hmmm... - 27/11/2009 05:40:50 AM 532 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 27/11/2009 04:42:36 PM 543 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 27/11/2009 05:53:11 PM 490 Views
Re: not being able to shield Elayne - 28/11/2009 09:46:24 PM 454 Views
Yes, the incidents rather cancel each other out IMO - 29/11/2009 12:55:04 AM 466 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 30/11/2009 04:44:41 AM 534 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 30/11/2009 05:50:37 AM 548 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 30/11/2009 08:09:24 PM 523 Views
This is our never ending debate ... at least it's a good one - 01/12/2009 03:31:40 PM 743 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 30/11/2009 08:57:50 PM 673 Views
Re: Well... - 24/11/2009 07:41:57 PM 425 Views
Re: Is Nynaeve of "very rare" strength? Yes *NM* - 22/11/2009 05:29:17 AM 218 Views
Yes. *NM* - 24/11/2009 05:56:17 PM 245 Views
Yes. *NM* - 25/11/2009 06:22:09 PM 204 Views

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