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Is Graendal the only Forsaken NOT to overstate her own ability then? Shannow Send a noteboard - 21/11/2009 01:53:28 PM

About your last sentence. Who says Graendal and Semirhage are not on the same level? Give me one quote that proves otherwise?

In fact, give me a convincing argument that even strongly SUGGESTS otherwise?


I was talking about Cyndane.

We don't have a single comparative quote between Graendal and Semirhage, or even between Graendal and Nynaeve, which would allow us to extrapolate to Semirhage.


Well exactly! So what's all this crap about the thematic significance of Semirhage being stronger than Cyndane. Even you admit that Semirhage is an enigma.


I just chuckled to myself at your last comment.

May I ask then, after admitting what you just did in that last paragraph, on what possible basis do you put Graendal THREE LEVELS higher than Semirhage?


Graendal is of very rare strength and therefore one of the stronger Forsaken women. Therefore she is one of the few Forsaken who exceeds Nynaeve. Nynaeve is stronger than Semirhage in all probability according to Brandon. Someryn from her quotes is probably one of the six because of her quotes on her strength, but she implies that Graendal exceeds her.

So there, that's my short story on why they're separated by THREE LEVELS ... what makes you sure that Semirhage is strong in the Power except for her being respected - a fact which I find flawed in any case.

I don't understand you, Shannow. It's like you can't comprehend that someone like Semirhage might not be close to top strength in saidar. If she was as strong as Moiraine she'd still be a legendary torturer, you know. It's her craft that makes her deadly. No one has ever referred to her strength. Even Lews Therin said that her reputation as a torturer loomed so heavily that he forgot how dangerous she was otherwise. Aginor is immensely strong in saidin, but he's a weak personality and Graendal mocks him, and Demandred. I've never found strength extrapolations like this to be useful.


I admit freely that Graendal could be as low as Mesaana, or indeed as high as you place her. But my point is, we have no evidence whatsoever to decide that.

You base a large part of your argument on Graendal's statement that women stronger than her were very rare. Are we to take it then that Graendal was the ONLY member of the Forsaken who did not overrate her own abilities?

Because based on the examples of the Forsaken self assessments so far, Graendal's very rare statement probably means she only bumped into 1 or 2 people EVERY DAY who exceeded her in strength.

I said that tongue in cheek, but the truth is, if Graendal's own opinion of her supposed strength is what you base your assessment on, then it certainly leaves a lot of room for questioning.

And besides, other than Moghedien, ALL of the Forsaken were of rare strength. So Graendal's quote tells us nothing really about where she lies compared to the other female Forsaken.

What I'm therefore pointing out is that your list, while it could certainly be true, is based on a heck of a lot of conjecture at this point in time.
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Female Forsaken strength : a new post Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:12:35 PM 1736 Views
Except... Etzel - 19/11/2009 04:26:32 PM 769 Views
There's no evidence for that Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:31:17 PM 725 Views
I agree with Sidious - we have no evidence at this time, so she should remain off the list kcf - 19/11/2009 04:38:31 PM 730 Views
It's common sense Etzel - 19/11/2009 04:40:01 PM 679 Views
No, it's based on absolutely nothing Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:50:30 PM 741 Views
If you agree that there are stronger damane than Alivia... Etzel - 19/11/2009 05:00:05 PM 663 Views
I didn't say that Sidious - 19/11/2009 05:07:33 PM 668 Views
Well, I think you are wrong... Etzel - 19/11/2009 05:35:27 PM 662 Views
Glad to have you back. Now for the arguments to start! Shannow - 19/11/2009 04:29:01 PM 779 Views
Hmm... Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:47:12 PM 785 Views
Actually, you are the one placing Lanfear immensely high, my list reduced the strength difference... Shannow - 19/11/2009 05:05:18 PM 857 Views
But I'm not Sidious - 19/11/2009 05:17:05 PM 756 Views
Let me ask you this... Shannow - 19/11/2009 10:13:12 PM 798 Views
Very good point *NM* Logain - 20/11/2009 01:38:55 AM 340 Views
One possibility Rand al'Thor - 20/11/2009 03:18:55 AM 721 Views
All assumption Sidious - 20/11/2009 04:11:20 AM 665 Views
Why introduce that concept, if it is just of academic importance? Shannow - 20/11/2009 07:41:54 AM 633 Views
You don't know the significance of it at all Sidious - 20/11/2009 03:14:46 PM 754 Views
Why? Shannow - 20/11/2009 03:17:51 PM 1275 Views
Re: Why? Sidious - 20/11/2009 04:30:50 PM 621 Views
How can you argue in such a way and still keep a straight face (presumably)... Shannow - 20/11/2009 05:07:39 PM 665 Views
Re: How can you argue in such a way and still keep a straight face (presumably)... Sidious - 21/11/2009 10:55:47 AM 656 Views
Is Graendal the only Forsaken NOT to overstate her own ability then? Shannow - 21/11/2009 01:53:28 PM 757 Views
Probably not in this case Sidious - 21/11/2009 11:34:25 PM 636 Views
Your rankings hinge ENTIRELY on whether you have Graendal correctly placed. Logain - 20/11/2009 03:24:22 PM 586 Views
Yeah... entirely Sidious - 20/11/2009 04:33:45 PM 620 Views
Okay, "entirely" was a bad choice of word. Logain - 20/11/2009 09:57:52 PM 636 Views
Re: Okay, "entirely" was a bad choice of word. Sidious - 21/11/2009 10:48:16 AM 705 Views
Re: Let me ask you this... lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:30:27 PM 668 Views
*correction*Re: Let me ask you this... lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:32:02 PM 643 Views
my comments w/ edit kcf - 19/11/2009 04:37:27 PM 718 Views
Re: my comments w/ edit Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:54:30 PM 780 Views
Re: my comments w/ edit lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:42:15 PM 594 Views
What ever happened to all teh info from wotmania? Especially the FAQs? *NM* callandor1000 - 19/11/2009 05:01:45 PM 443 Views
http://13depository.blogspot.com/ *NM* TaskmasterJack - 19/11/2009 05:31:01 PM 353 Views
Re: Female Forsaken strength : a new post TaskmasterJack - 19/11/2009 05:39:10 PM 746 Views
Re: Female Forsaken strength : a new post -- What about Dexterity?? Tedtheman - 19/11/2009 06:44:31 PM 751 Views
This perfectly matches my understanding of the situation. Rand al'Thor - 19/11/2009 07:06:31 PM 615 Views
Seems good, except I'd bunch up the upper levels and place Nynaeve a little higher. *NM* fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 09:46:16 PM 387 Views
Agreed! This make more sense than the previous list *NM* Basara - 20/11/2009 12:07:37 AM 390 Views
Too many levels Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/11/2009 01:48:24 AM 740 Views
You are completely right about too many levels. Logain - 20/11/2009 04:17:17 AM 622 Views
21 levels is largely a myth kcf - 20/11/2009 04:27:27 AM 628 Views
Re: 21 levels is largely a myth DomA - 20/11/2009 01:51:17 PM 759 Views
Thanks for the post. Interesting stuff there. *NM* Logain - 20/11/2009 03:14:12 PM 324 Views
That's good to know. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 20/11/2009 07:56:41 PM 605 Views
I have to disagree for a couple of reasons. Logain - 20/11/2009 04:14:40 AM 761 Views
I thought of something else to support my upper limit theory on gateways Logain - 20/11/2009 01:53:05 PM 748 Views
Talaan is not stronger than Nynaeve darius_sedai - 28/11/2009 08:27:22 PM 774 Views
Re: Talaan is not stronger than Nynaeve Logain - 28/11/2009 10:05:15 PM 855 Views
Talaan has be channeling for 6 or 7 years darius_sedai - 28/11/2009 10:56:12 PM 665 Views
Re: I have to disagree for a couple of reasons. taura-tierno - 30/12/2009 12:37:40 AM 1081 Views
Agree with nearly all Lord o' Salv - 20/11/2009 04:43:47 AM 626 Views
more hopefully to come kcf - 20/11/2009 08:15:00 PM 605 Views
Thanks KCF, that's a great question to ask. Shannow - 20/11/2009 08:28:32 PM 842 Views
I'm the same way. I should be studying for law school finals, but I'm distracted. *NM* Logain - 20/11/2009 09:45:46 PM 304 Views
A little more evidence that Nynaeve is stronger than Semirhage darius_sedai - 29/11/2009 12:12:37 AM 634 Views
I agree that Graendal is the 2nd most powerful woman Forsaken darius_sedai - 29/11/2009 04:07:00 PM 594 Views
It's possible Logain - 30/11/2009 08:23:28 PM 609 Views
Re: It's possible darius_sedai - 01/12/2009 06:18:56 PM 714 Views
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