Actually, I just reread that passage, and now I'm confused again...
Shannow Send a noteboard - 21/11/2009 08:30:17 AM
At the Cleansing it was revealed that the likes of Demandred and Cyndane could make new gateways immediately after arriving at the Battle Zone. This defied the existing explanation that you had to spend time getting to know a place before you could make gateways from it.
Personally, I think RJ saw the tactical need to be able to make a lot of gateways quickly in the heat of battle, so he had to change the rule somewhat to explain how this is possible.
Pretty soon after Winter's Heart, if I recall correctly, Rand suddenly mentions that you don't have to know a place to make gateways for short distances (i.e. to destinations in close proximity to the first gateway.) Now this goes against the explanation we had before, as making a gateway does not mean you have to know your destination, but that you have to know where you're Travelling from.
In any case, Rand now makes gateways to places within the same city with no problem. This despite the fact that Skimming was used for such short distance Travelling in the past.
But now, RJ had another problem. The implication of making a gateway FROM somewhere, however short it might be, is that you now KNOW that place. Certainly, when using saidar you make your destination similar to your departure point.
So the net result is that once you've made a gateway from a place, even if it is for a short distance, then you KNOW that part of the Pattern.
In tGS, Nynaeve observes Rand making use of this principle. When he doesn't know a place well enough to Travel from it, he simply makes a "short" gateway to somewhere close by - which now is possible as per Demandred and Cyndane at the Cleansing.
Then he immediately closes this "short" gateway, without actually using it. The purpose of this exercise was to familiarize himself with the area. So now he is able to make a "long" gateway, to anywhere he chooses to go.
The net effect is that he no longer has to wait and familiarize himself with an area. Instead, by using this trick he can Travel anywhere at any time.
The whole of the above obviously begs the question: "Why didn't Asmodean just teach him this trick instead of going into the long explanation of why Skimming is necessary if you know your destination but not your departure point.
And why did Asmodean use Skimming to get to Rhuidean, and not just this much quicker trick, which would have handed him the Choedan Kal without any interference from Rand. In hindsight of course.
Personally, I think RJ saw the tactical need to be able to make a lot of gateways quickly in the heat of battle, so he had to change the rule somewhat to explain how this is possible.
Pretty soon after Winter's Heart, if I recall correctly, Rand suddenly mentions that you don't have to know a place to make gateways for short distances (i.e. to destinations in close proximity to the first gateway.) Now this goes against the explanation we had before, as making a gateway does not mean you have to know your destination, but that you have to know where you're Travelling from.
In any case, Rand now makes gateways to places within the same city with no problem. This despite the fact that Skimming was used for such short distance Travelling in the past.
But now, RJ had another problem. The implication of making a gateway FROM somewhere, however short it might be, is that you now KNOW that place. Certainly, when using saidar you make your destination similar to your departure point.
So the net result is that once you've made a gateway from a place, even if it is for a short distance, then you KNOW that part of the Pattern.
In tGS, Nynaeve observes Rand making use of this principle. When he doesn't know a place well enough to Travel from it, he simply makes a "short" gateway to somewhere close by - which now is possible as per Demandred and Cyndane at the Cleansing.
Then he immediately closes this "short" gateway, without actually using it. The purpose of this exercise was to familiarize himself with the area. So now he is able to make a "long" gateway, to anywhere he chooses to go.
The net effect is that he no longer has to wait and familiarize himself with an area. Instead, by using this trick he can Travel anywhere at any time.
The whole of the above obviously begs the question: "Why didn't Asmodean just teach him this trick instead of going into the long explanation of why Skimming is necessary if you know your destination but not your departure point.
And why did Asmodean use Skimming to get to Rhuidean, and not just this much quicker trick, which would have handed him the Choedan Kal without any interference from Rand. In hindsight of course.
I wasn't aware of all of this. So it's not just the Ways (of the Ogier) and the Travelling stones (to other worlds) but also those travelling gateways into empty darkness which are cast aside in the series.
When I first read it, I was skimming through the book, and kind of took Nynaeve's comments to mean the only logical thing it could mean.
But after your question, I've now gone and reread it, and it doesn't make any sense anymore.
It seems Rand actually made a gateway to somewhere close by, and rode through that gateway. And according to Nynaeve in that passage, "Making a gateway TO somewhere made you know the place well enough to Travel FROM it."
To me, that makes no sense whatsoever. Up to now, if you made a gateway TO a place, and let it close, you had to wait until you familiarized yourself with the place before you could Travel from it again.
In fact, if Travelling TO a place made you know it well enough to make gateways FROM it, there would never be any issue in the first place. Wherever you Travel to, you could immediately Travel back from it again. Why go through the process of making the short hop gateway first?
I think Sanderson got that slightly wrong.
I think what that was meant to portray, is that if you make a short gateway FROM a place, that by default means you then KNOW the place well enough to make a gateway FROM it to ANYWHERE.
This might require a question to BS. But please, not before he gets asked the much more important question of how Graendal's strength compares to Nynaeve's!
If the Forsaken really wanted to defeat the Light - gateways at the bottom of the ocean...
20/11/2009 02:02:59 PM
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I've actually thought that would be a great way to make a power plant.
20/11/2009 02:48:21 PM
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The Forsaken don't think like that
20/11/2009 02:57:27 PM
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I specifically referred to Ishamael, who shares none of those motivations with the other Forsaken...
20/11/2009 03:11:26 PM
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What in the world... outer space?? This is fantasy, not sci-fi *NM*
20/11/2009 03:08:26 PM
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RJ has stated that channelers can Travel to other planets, even other solar systems...
20/11/2009 03:12:37 PM
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I didn't expect him to answer that question, it was just something I was wondering about
20/11/2009 04:06:53 PM
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OK...
20/11/2009 05:15:32 PM
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Moghedien talks about how they travelled to other stars in the Age of Legends...
20/11/2009 06:09:17 PM
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Because it is a world that is undergoing an industrial revolution
21/11/2009 01:19:28 AM
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This brings up an "Evil Wins, What Next?" scenario I've always wondered about
20/11/2009 03:39:14 PM
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The DO doesn't have the motivations of the forsaken, he doesn't think like a human...
22/11/2009 03:38:15 PM
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They would have to know the bottom of the ocean very well to create. *NM*
20/11/2009 05:02:50 PM
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Wouldn't be too hard, given Rand's trick. *NM*
20/11/2009 05:12:22 PM
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Intense preasure would kill you before you could weave or a hell of a shield bubble *NM*
20/11/2009 07:01:58 PM
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Gateway "magic" accounts for this, or most gateways would have STRONG breeze
20/11/2009 06:43:44 PM
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Very conducive places, the bottom of the sea and outer space...
20/11/2009 07:01:56 PM
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Knee jerk disagreement without thinking beyond: "I don't like the idea so let's flame it..."
20/11/2009 07:12:38 PM
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And your response is even sillier ideas? Think for more than three minutes before responding again.
20/11/2009 11:08:59 PM
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You need to go read FoH again...
21/11/2009 03:35:01 AM
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The Silliness Continues-Part IV of Shannow's crazy ways to commit suicide...
21/11/2009 05:44:34 AM
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On the limits of power
21/11/2009 07:32:44 AM
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Great question. These fundamental issues are the REAL challenges to be overcome, yes...
21/11/2009 07:50:46 AM
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Fluids CAN move across gateways on their own. We saw it with the draft of wind in tGS. *NM*
21/11/2009 01:32:46 PM
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Oh, and regarding the new Travelling skill Nynaeve mentions in tGS...
21/11/2009 08:03:45 AM
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Ah, thanks
21/11/2009 08:10:48 AM
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Actually, I just reread that passage, and now I'm confused again...
21/11/2009 08:30:17 AM
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Its pretty simple...
21/11/2009 08:07:14 PM
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You don't learn a place when you Travel TO it...
21/11/2009 08:23:11 PM
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The same issue again...
21/11/2009 08:58:37 PM
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They might have shared Gateways, so only those who wove them know the area? *NM*
21/11/2009 10:00:04 PM
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That has to be the first sensible question broached in this thread...
21/11/2009 09:18:59 PM
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The simplest explanation'd be that GWs can't be opened in water, since it moves/changes constantly
20/11/2009 07:27:08 PM
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Or balefire Rand. Wait a few generations near Dragonmount, kidnap all children born on the slopes...
20/11/2009 09:07:46 PM
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Why didn't Frodo and Sam just ride the Eagles to Mt. Doom, and toss the Ring then fly back? *NM*
20/11/2009 10:35:17 PM
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Actually here's an even simpler idea: open a gateway into a Black Hole. *NM*
21/11/2009 01:53:38 AM
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You can't...there aren't any Black Holes close enough...
21/11/2009 03:22:38 AM
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Doubtful
21/11/2009 03:29:35 AM
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Surely Moridin could channel enough of the True Power... *NM*
21/11/2009 01:19:05 PM
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Moridin cannot channel any more of the True Power than he can of the One Power.
21/11/2009 01:58:30 PM
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