I thought of something else to support my upper limit theory on gateways
Logain Send a noteboard - 20/11/2009 01:53:05 PM
Point 4: Sidious errs by not taking into account new information from tGS regarding gateways.
We learned something important about gateways from Rand in tGS. There is a limit to how big a gateway someone can make on their own and to go any bigger requires a circle. I can best explain this new evidence with an anology to racquetball.
Imagine I'm playing raquetball. I'm a 6'3" man, in my 30's, 190 lbs. Average strength. So imagine I'm standing 150 feet away from the raquetball wall. If I hit the ball as hard as I can, I can hit it all the way to the wall, but I can't hit it any further. The wall stops my ball. Did I hit the ball to the wall? Yes.
Okay, now imagine it is Arnold Schwarzenneger's turn to hit the ball. He enters the court, stands 150 feet back from the wall and hits the ball as hard as he can. His ball also makes it to the wall, but just like mine, his ball bounces off the wall. The wall stops his ball. Did Arnold hit the ball to the wall? Yes.
Next, imagine an 8 year old kid hits the ball standing 150 feet away from the wall. He probably doesn't make it all the way to the wall.
The point of my analogy is that the "wall" is analogous to the minimum strength needed to make a 4 paces x 4 paces gateway. Everyone has been assuming (wrongly I believe) that only a channeler of Rand's strength can make a 4 x 4 gateway. That's an incorrect assumption. Rand's comment about there being limits on gateway size support my theory. My theory is that you do not need 100 strength to make a 4 x 4 gateway. Someone with less than 100 strength can make the same size gateway as Rand. I don't know what minimum strength is needed to make a 4 x 4 gateway; maybe 85, 90, or 95 strength could make a 4 x 4 gateway.
If I'm right, and I believe the new evidence in tGS backs me up on this, then Sammael's ability to make a gateway 93.5% the size of a 4 x 4 gateway does NOT give Sammael 93.5 power out of 100. It means Sammael has 93.5% of whatever the minimum number needed to make a 4 x 4 gateway. For example, assuming that someone with 90 power can make a 4 x 4 gateway, then Sammael's power = 90 * .935 = 84.15 power out of 100.
Go back and read the quotes from Rand in tGS about gateways and try to prove my theory wrong. Thus, the male Forsaken go like this:
Ishamael
Aginor / Demandred
Be'lal
Sammael
Rahvin / Balthamel option 1
Balthamel option 2
Asmodean
According to the Big White Book, Be'lal surpassed both Rahvin and Sammael in power. I know some disagree with where I have him placed. However, we have almost no evidence on Be'lal, so my placement could be correct. Some people (mistakenly) state that Sammael must be one of the three most powerful men channelers because he was one of the DO's favorite 6. But RJ NEVER said the DO's 6 favorites were also the 6 most powerful. In fact, we know for sure that at least 3 males are above Sammael in power (Ishamael, Demandred, and Aginor). Why couldn't Be'lal also be above Sammael?
I'm not sure where to put Balthamel a.k.a. "Aran'gar/Halima". Obviously Balthamel goes somehwere below Aginor b/c Aginor was planning on killing Balthamel at the Eye of the World. Obviously Balthamel goes above Asmodean. At the cleansing we saw that Aginor was not a coward; he stayed and fought after all. Nonetheless, Aginor knows his own limits. Thus, for Aginor to be confident he could defeat Balthamel, I think we HAVE to put Balthamel at a bare minimum, at least 2 levels below Aginor, probably 3 levels below him is more fair. I believe Balthamel is probably on the same level as Rahvin, or possibly occupies a level between Rahvin and Asmodean (if a level exists between Rahvin and Asmodean). It is possible Balthamel occupies the same level as Sammael, but for Aginor to be confident he could take out Balthamel, especially considering he acknowledges his own lack of combat expertise, I think it more probable Balthamel is three or more levels below Aginor.
We learned something important about gateways from Rand in tGS. There is a limit to how big a gateway someone can make on their own and to go any bigger requires a circle. I can best explain this new evidence with an anology to racquetball.
Imagine I'm playing raquetball. I'm a 6'3" man, in my 30's, 190 lbs. Average strength. So imagine I'm standing 150 feet away from the raquetball wall. If I hit the ball as hard as I can, I can hit it all the way to the wall, but I can't hit it any further. The wall stops my ball. Did I hit the ball to the wall? Yes.
Okay, now imagine it is Arnold Schwarzenneger's turn to hit the ball. He enters the court, stands 150 feet back from the wall and hits the ball as hard as he can. His ball also makes it to the wall, but just like mine, his ball bounces off the wall. The wall stops his ball. Did Arnold hit the ball to the wall? Yes.
Next, imagine an 8 year old kid hits the ball standing 150 feet away from the wall. He probably doesn't make it all the way to the wall.
The point of my analogy is that the "wall" is analogous to the minimum strength needed to make a 4 paces x 4 paces gateway. Everyone has been assuming (wrongly I believe) that only a channeler of Rand's strength can make a 4 x 4 gateway. That's an incorrect assumption. Rand's comment about there being limits on gateway size support my theory. My theory is that you do not need 100 strength to make a 4 x 4 gateway. Someone with less than 100 strength can make the same size gateway as Rand. I don't know what minimum strength is needed to make a 4 x 4 gateway; maybe 85, 90, or 95 strength could make a 4 x 4 gateway.
If I'm right, and I believe the new evidence in tGS backs me up on this, then Sammael's ability to make a gateway 93.5% the size of a 4 x 4 gateway does NOT give Sammael 93.5 power out of 100. It means Sammael has 93.5% of whatever the minimum number needed to make a 4 x 4 gateway. For example, assuming that someone with 90 power can make a 4 x 4 gateway, then Sammael's power = 90 * .935 = 84.15 power out of 100.
Go back and read the quotes from Rand in tGS about gateways and try to prove my theory wrong. Thus, the male Forsaken go like this:
Ishamael
Aginor / Demandred
Be'lal
Sammael
Rahvin / Balthamel option 1
Balthamel option 2
Asmodean
According to the Big White Book, Be'lal surpassed both Rahvin and Sammael in power. I know some disagree with where I have him placed. However, we have almost no evidence on Be'lal, so my placement could be correct. Some people (mistakenly) state that Sammael must be one of the three most powerful men channelers because he was one of the DO's favorite 6. But RJ NEVER said the DO's 6 favorites were also the 6 most powerful. In fact, we know for sure that at least 3 males are above Sammael in power (Ishamael, Demandred, and Aginor). Why couldn't Be'lal also be above Sammael?
I'm not sure where to put Balthamel a.k.a. "Aran'gar/Halima". Obviously Balthamel goes somehwere below Aginor b/c Aginor was planning on killing Balthamel at the Eye of the World. Obviously Balthamel goes above Asmodean. At the cleansing we saw that Aginor was not a coward; he stayed and fought after all. Nonetheless, Aginor knows his own limits. Thus, for Aginor to be confident he could defeat Balthamel, I think we HAVE to put Balthamel at a bare minimum, at least 2 levels below Aginor, probably 3 levels below him is more fair. I believe Balthamel is probably on the same level as Rahvin, or possibly occupies a level between Rahvin and Asmodean (if a level exists between Rahvin and Asmodean). It is possible Balthamel occupies the same level as Sammael, but for Aginor to be confident he could take out Balthamel, especially considering he acknowledges his own lack of combat expertise, I think it more probable Balthamel is three or more levels below Aginor.
This morning I thought of something else that supports my theory, particularly the point I quoted above. We know there is a cap on how large a gateway a single person can make. If there was not a cap, then anyone with an angreal or sa'angreal should be able to make a gateway larger than 4 x 4. However, even if someone has an angreal or sa'angreal that boosts their power significantly, by themselve, that person will only be able to open a 4 x 4 gateway. There is a limit, as Rand explains, to what one person can do by him/herself. To make anything larger than a 4 x 4 gateway requires a circle.
The evidence is pretty clear that you reach the power needed to make a 4 x 4 gateway around 90 power (on a 100 point scale).
Female Forsaken strength : a new post
19/11/2009 04:12:35 PM
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Except...
19/11/2009 04:26:32 PM
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There's no evidence for that
19/11/2009 04:31:17 PM
- 637 Views
I agree with Sidious - we have no evidence at this time, so she should remain off the list
19/11/2009 04:38:31 PM
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It's common sense
19/11/2009 04:40:01 PM
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No, it's based on absolutely nothing
19/11/2009 04:50:30 PM
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If you agree that there are stronger damane than Alivia...
19/11/2009 05:00:05 PM
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Glad to have you back. Now for the arguments to start!
19/11/2009 04:29:01 PM
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Hmm...
19/11/2009 04:47:12 PM
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Actually, you are the one placing Lanfear immensely high, my list reduced the strength difference...
19/11/2009 05:05:18 PM
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But I'm not
19/11/2009 05:17:05 PM
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Let me ask you this...
19/11/2009 10:13:12 PM
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All assumption
20/11/2009 04:11:20 AM
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Why introduce that concept, if it is just of academic importance?
20/11/2009 07:41:54 AM
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You don't know the significance of it at all
20/11/2009 03:14:46 PM
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Why?
20/11/2009 03:17:51 PM
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Re: Why?
20/11/2009 04:30:50 PM
- 532 Views
How can you argue in such a way and still keep a straight face (presumably)...
20/11/2009 05:07:39 PM
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Re: How can you argue in such a way and still keep a straight face (presumably)...
21/11/2009 10:55:47 AM
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Is Graendal the only Forsaken NOT to overstate her own ability then?
21/11/2009 01:53:28 PM
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Your rankings hinge ENTIRELY on whether you have Graendal correctly placed.
20/11/2009 03:24:22 PM
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Yeah... entirely
20/11/2009 04:33:45 PM
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What ever happened to all teh info from wotmania? Especially the FAQs? *NM*
19/11/2009 05:01:45 PM
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Re: Female Forsaken strength : a new post
19/11/2009 05:39:10 PM
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Re: Female Forsaken strength : a new post -- What about Dexterity??
19/11/2009 06:44:31 PM
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Seems good, except I'd bunch up the upper levels and place Nynaeve a little higher. *NM*
19/11/2009 09:46:16 PM
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Too many levels
20/11/2009 01:48:24 AM
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21 levels is largely a myth
20/11/2009 04:27:27 AM
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I have to disagree for a couple of reasons.
20/11/2009 04:14:40 AM
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I thought of something else to support my upper limit theory on gateways
20/11/2009 01:53:05 PM
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Talaan is not stronger than Nynaeve
28/11/2009 08:27:22 PM
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more hopefully to come
20/11/2009 08:15:00 PM
- 516 Views
Thanks KCF, that's a great question to ask.
20/11/2009 08:28:32 PM
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I'm the same way. I should be studying for law school finals, but I'm distracted. *NM*
20/11/2009 09:45:46 PM
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I agree that Graendal is the 2nd most powerful woman Forsaken
29/11/2009 04:07:00 PM
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