Here's what you have for your list, Sidious:



I have several points to make, so I apologize for the length ahead of time.

Point 1: Sidious errs by having 8 levels occupied between Lanfear to Moghedien because that leaves only 13 levels for everyone else in the world and that's not enough to distinguish the rest of the channelers

You see, your proposed new list has too many levels between Lanfear and Moghedien. You have it wrong in there somewhere. You need to bunch up your levels some. On the previous saidar list, found here: http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html#chart there are only 6 levels total from Lanfear to Moghedien. Once I fill in people below Moghedien using your list, your list falls apart.

Everyone agrees there must be 4 levels to differentiate between Aviendha's level down to Elaida's level (there's no way around that).

Everyone agrees there must be 4 levels to differentiate between Daigian down to Morgase (there's no way around that).

And that leaves you with only 5 levels left to try to fit everyone else in. AND that, my friend, is where your list gets proven wrong. Because the whole point of RJ's 21 level list was so he could remember and keep track of who defers to who, etc. I have a strong feeling RJ used a lot more than 5 levels to spread out the Aes Sedai. But with your model, you've only got 5 levels to play with. Try fitting all the remaining Aes Sedai onto only 5 levels and you'll have to agree it wouldn't help RJ differentiate much at all.

In conclusion, you spread out your Forsaken levels without thinking of the effect that would have on everyone else below on the 21 level list. No my friend, you are wrong this time (though you are right a lot of the time). You need to bunch up the Forsaken levels and narrow it down from the 8 levels you currently propose. That's why I suspect my list of the women, at least, is more likely accurate than yours.

I've been saying this now for some time. I think the women go like this:

Lanfear / Alivia / (unnamed character option 1)
Sharina / Talaan / Someryn / (unnamed character option 2)
Semirhage / Nynaeve / Cyndane option 1
Graendal option 1 / Cyndane option 2 / Mesaana option 1
Graendal option 2/ Mesaana option 2
Moghedien

In my proposal above, Cyndane's strength is unknown. If Cyndane is on the same level as Nynaeve and Semirhage (see Cyndane option 1), then Graendal is at Graendal option 1. However, if Cyndane is now weaker than Nynaeve (see Cyndane option 2), then Graendal has to slide down to Graendal option 2 to make Graendal weaker than Cyndane.

Point 2: Someryn
We agree that we do not know Someryn's exact placement. Nonetheless, we learned from Verin's conversation with Egwene that all of the Forsaken act pretty much alike (except Moridin). When Graendal talks to Sammael about Someryn, Graendal says she will not teach Someryn certain things because she does not want to risk both strength and skill in Someryn. I said this in an earlier post, but the Forsaken do what most humans do, they try to draw attention away from their own weaknesses (e.g. Someryn is stronger than Graendal) by changing the subject (e.g. Someryn's perceived lack of skill compared to Graendal's assesment of her own skill).

In any event we do not know for sure how strong Someryn is. In my opinion, however, Graendal's statement to Sammael leads me to believe that Someryn is as strong (or stronger) than Graendal. Graendal is saying, "HOLY CRAP, that lady (Someryn) is as strong (or stronger) than me! Good thing I've got all my age of legends knowledge because my better skill makes me tougher than her (Someryn)."

Something else nobody has said yet, but we learn that the Shaido have approximately 400 wise ones who can channel (see the Perrin chapters around Malden). Anyway, with 12 clans, there's approximately 4500-5000 Wise Ones who can channel. I expect there to be several Forsaken strength Wise Ones. Someryn is definitely one.


Point 3: Sidious errs by giving too much credit to Graendal's statement of her own power.
The Forsaken are notorious at believing themselves more powerful than they really are. They ALL do it.

Graendal's exact quote regarding her own strength compared to Cyndane is: The girl was stronger in the One Power than she [Graendal] herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women.

Because Graendal is comparing herself, her statements could be true, but likely she is exagerating her own power. Graendal's choice of words: "very rare" could be wrong. Maybe it was just "rare" to find someone stronger than her instead of "very rare."

Point 4: Sidious errs by not taking into account new information from tGS regarding gateways.
We learned something important about gateways from Rand in tGS. There is a limit to how big a gateway someone can make on their own and to go any bigger requires a circle. I can best explain this new evidence with an anology to racquetball.

Imagine I'm playing raquetball. I'm a 6'3" man, in my 30's, 190 lbs. Average strength. So imagine I'm standing 150 feet away from the raquetball wall. If I hit the ball as hard as I can, I can hit it all the way to the wall, but I can't hit it any further. The wall stops my ball. Did I hit the ball to the wall? Yes.

Okay, now imagine it is Arnold Schwarzenneger's turn to hit the ball. He enters the court, stands 150 feet back from the wall and hits the ball as hard as he can. His ball also makes it to the wall, but just like mine, his ball bounces off the wall. The wall stops his ball. Did Arnold hit the ball to the wall? Yes.

Next, imagine an 8 year old kid hits the ball standing 150 feet away from the wall. He probably doesn't make it all the way to the wall.

The point of my analogy is that the "wall" is analogous to the minimum strength needed to make a 4 paces x 4 paces gateway. Everyone has been assuming (wrongly I believe) that only a channeler of Rand's strength can make a 4 x 4 gateway. That's an incorrect assumption. Rand's comment about there being limits on gateway size support my theory. My theory is that you do not need 100 strength to make a 4 x 4 gateway. Someone with less than 100 strength can make the same size gateway as Rand. I don't know what minimum strength is needed to make a 4 x 4 gateway; maybe 85, 90, or 95 strength could make a 4 x 4 gateway.

If I'm right, and I believe the new evidence in tGS backs me up on this, then Sammael's ability to make a gateway 93.5% the size of a 4 x 4 gateway does NOT give Sammael 93.5 power out of 100. It means Sammael has 93.5% of whatever the minimum number needed to make a 4 x 4 gateway. For example, assuming that someone with 90 power can make a 4 x 4 gateway, then Sammael's power = 90 * .935 = 84.15 power out of 100.

Go back and read the quotes from Rand in tGS about gateways and try to prove my theory wrong. Thus, the male Forsaken go like this:

Ishamael
Aginor / Demandred
Be'lal
Sammael
Rahvin / Balthamel option 1
Balthamel option 2
Asmodean

According to the Big White Book, Be'lal surpassed both Rahvin and Sammael in power. I know some disagree with where I have him placed. However, we have almost no evidence on Be'lal, so my placement could be correct. Some people (mistakenly) state that Sammael must be one of the three most powerful men channelers because he was one of the DO's favorite 6. But RJ NEVER said the DO's 6 favorites were also the 6 most powerful. In fact, we know for sure that at least 3 males are above Sammael in power (Ishamael, Demandred, and Aginor). Why couldn't Be'lal also be above Sammael?

I'm not sure where to put Balthamel a.k.a. "Aran'gar/Halima". Obviously Balthamel goes somehwere below Aginor b/c Aginor was planning on killing Balthamel at the Eye of the World. Obviously Balthamel goes above Asmodean. At the cleansing we saw that Aginor was not a coward; he stayed and fought after all. Nonetheless, Aginor knows his own limits. Thus, for Aginor to be confident he could defeat Balthamel, I think we HAVE to put Balthamel at a bare minimum, at least 2 levels below Aginor, probably 3 levels below him is more fair. I believe Balthamel is probably on the same level as Rahvin, or possibly occupies a level between Rahvin and Asmodean (if a level exists between Rahvin and Asmodean). It is possible Balthamel occupies the same level as Sammael, but for Aginor to be confident he could take out Balthamel, especially considering he acknowledges his own lack of combat expertise, I think it more probable Balthamel is three or more levels below Aginor.

Point 5: If I'm right about gateways, above in point 4, then I'm probably right about Sammael occupying level 4 on the men's list.
Because Moridin thinks Graendal and Sammael are equally matched, we have the testimony of an uninterested third party observant who is intimately familiar with their strengths and weaknesses. Moridin says they are equal, and I believe him. Thus, with Sammael at level 4 on the men, then Graendal should be at level 4 on the women (give or take one level).

And that's why my list is likely more accurate. I have Graendal on level 4.

Lanfear / Alivia / (unnamed character option 1)
Sharina / Talaan / Someryn / (unnamed character option 2)
Semirhage / Nynaeve / Cyndane option 1
Graendal option 1 / Cyndane option 2 / Mesaana option 1
Graendal option 2/ Mesaana option 2
Moghedien