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Female Forsaken strength : a new post Sidious Send a noteboard - 19/11/2009 04:12:35 PM
First off, I want to thank Ken for asking Brandon my question on the strength difference between Semirhage and Nynaeve. I was definitely not expecting an answer, and I was pleasantly surprised.

I decided to make a new post because there are over a hundred views in the previous post and it's getting crowded. Thanks to Shannow and all the debating there - I loved all the bickering.

Let me start off by saying that Brandon seems like a nice guy, but he shoots from the hip. He's answering things incorrectly and causing all manner of scandals. If we didn't know better about Cyndane, we'd all be in a fuss, but he's making major errors in his answers. I also find it very unlikely that the guy knows the strength tree to any reasonable degree. I'm sure he knows some landmarks, but his own words show that he's 'reasonably' this 'pretty sure' that. It's all very vague and unreliable information. It would actually be better to get a RAFO than to get wrong information based on guessing.

Moving on.. I've read all his comments, and sort of sifted through with what I consider to be true and false, and I'm sure some people will disagree. I certainly disagree with Shannow's assessment of the tree, and my own now looks like this...

1. Lanfear
2. Cyndane, Alivia
3. Graendal
4. Sharina, Someryn
5. Nynaeve, Talaan
6. Semirhage
7. Mesaana
8. Moghedien

Nynaeve is weaker than three Forsaken and stronger than three, and that makes her average Forsaken strength - according to RJ. Brandon is reasonably sure Semirhage is weaker than Nynaeve, but this is not fact - he might be wrong, but he's quite sure that they are close, so they may share a level. What he does know is that only six women are stronger than Nynaeve. The six women are Lanfear, Cyndane, Alivia, Graendal, Sharina and Someryn.

There's been too much effort to create controversy regarding Cyndane. Brandon's recanted his statement that she is much weaker, and settled on her only being weaker. We know this from the series already. Graendal said that Cyndane was much stronger than Moghedien, so placing her only one level higher is wrong. We know from multiple repetitive quotes that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, but no one says that she is incomparably weak. Graendal is shocked at Cyndane's strength - even in her own Age, Cyndane's strength was extremely rare in women. There's no point in Graendal considering herself to be a woman of rare strength if there are five levels of strength above her. That single quote implies that Graendal is very close to the top of the strength tree. We also have quotes that imply that Graendal is a match for Sammael and Lanfear in combat, either from Moridin or Rahvin, so she's clearly not low down.

Now Someryn supposedly has strength among the Wise One that has never nearly been approached. This implies very great strength, and we already know of women like Aviendha, Tamela and Viendre who have high strength among the Aiel. Someryn's statement implies that Graendal is even stronger than her, which is once again proof that Graendal is extremely powerful for a woman.

Mesaana is one of the weaker Forsaken, which if you look at it, may be one of the only pieces of really valuable information we received apart from the statement of the 'six'. Most people have equated Mesaana and Semirhage in strength for as long as I can remember, but Brandon is sure that Mesaana is not a strong Forsaken, despite what Sheriam says.

The strengths of Moghedien and Lanfear are probably obvious as the weakest and strongest. It doesn't really matter where Sharina and Alivia are, but they are both stronger than Nynaeve. It's your own opinion on where they stand but mine are as I stated them. I also believe that we know every channeler of strength in the series. I don't believe that new channelers of great strength are coming for the last book, and I don't believe that the super-strong channelers are obscure characters like Sera, the Kinswoman who is over 600 years old, or Latra Posae Decume.

I think it's important not to let Brandon bomb years of theorizing out of the water. Sure, he's one of maybe three people who's ever seen the true strength of these women, but he's clearly guessing in half his answers, and certifiably incorrect in at least one (which he now admits). RJ made specific statements on strength in interviews that were rare but carry a lot of weight. There are also many quotes in the series surrounding the strength of the female Forsaken.

It's awesome that we now know more about Mesaana and Nynaeve, but the rest is conjecture. It should affect most of our strength lists minimally.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 19/11/2009 at 04:17:32 PM
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Female Forsaken strength : a new post - 19/11/2009 04:12:35 PM 1656 Views
Except... - 19/11/2009 04:26:32 PM 699 Views
There's no evidence for that - 19/11/2009 04:31:17 PM 653 Views
It's common sense - 19/11/2009 04:40:01 PM 633 Views
No, it's based on absolutely nothing - 19/11/2009 04:50:30 PM 668 Views
If you agree that there are stronger damane than Alivia... - 19/11/2009 05:00:05 PM 591 Views
I didn't say that - 19/11/2009 05:07:33 PM 606 Views
Well, I think you are wrong... - 19/11/2009 05:35:27 PM 590 Views
Glad to have you back. Now for the arguments to start! - 19/11/2009 04:29:01 PM 708 Views
Hmm... - 19/11/2009 04:47:12 PM 710 Views
Actually, you are the one placing Lanfear immensely high, my list reduced the strength difference... - 19/11/2009 05:05:18 PM 778 Views
But I'm not - 19/11/2009 05:17:05 PM 686 Views
Let me ask you this... - 19/11/2009 10:13:12 PM 731 Views
Very good point *NM* - 20/11/2009 01:38:55 AM 313 Views
One possibility - 20/11/2009 03:18:55 AM 643 Views
All assumption - 20/11/2009 04:11:20 AM 580 Views
Why introduce that concept, if it is just of academic importance? - 20/11/2009 07:41:54 AM 566 Views
You don't know the significance of it at all - 20/11/2009 03:14:46 PM 677 Views
Why? - 20/11/2009 03:17:51 PM 1200 Views
Re: Why? - 20/11/2009 04:30:50 PM 547 Views
How can you argue in such a way and still keep a straight face (presumably)... - 20/11/2009 05:07:39 PM 586 Views
Re: How can you argue in such a way and still keep a straight face (presumably)... - 21/11/2009 10:55:47 AM 573 Views
Is Graendal the only Forsaken NOT to overstate her own ability then? - 21/11/2009 01:53:28 PM 680 Views
Probably not in this case - 21/11/2009 11:34:25 PM 563 Views
Your rankings hinge ENTIRELY on whether you have Graendal correctly placed. - 20/11/2009 03:24:22 PM 524 Views
Yeah... entirely - 20/11/2009 04:33:45 PM 544 Views
Okay, "entirely" was a bad choice of word. - 20/11/2009 09:57:52 PM 569 Views
Re: Okay, "entirely" was a bad choice of word. - 21/11/2009 10:48:16 AM 628 Views
Re: Let me ask you this... - 23/12/2009 04:30:27 PM 598 Views
*correction*Re: Let me ask you this... - 23/12/2009 04:32:02 PM 565 Views
my comments w/ edit - 19/11/2009 04:37:27 PM 651 Views
Re: my comments w/ edit - 19/11/2009 04:54:30 PM 716 Views
Re: my comments w/ edit - 23/12/2009 04:42:15 PM 523 Views
What ever happened to all teh info from wotmania? Especially the FAQs? *NM* - 19/11/2009 05:01:45 PM 397 Views
http://13depository.blogspot.com/ *NM* - 19/11/2009 05:31:01 PM 322 Views
Re: Female Forsaken strength : a new post - 19/11/2009 05:39:10 PM 663 Views
Re: Female Forsaken strength : a new post -- What about Dexterity?? - 19/11/2009 06:44:31 PM 674 Views
This perfectly matches my understanding of the situation. - 19/11/2009 07:06:31 PM 544 Views
Agreed! This make more sense than the previous list *NM* - 20/11/2009 12:07:37 AM 356 Views
Too many levels - 20/11/2009 01:48:24 AM 675 Views
You are completely right about too many levels. - 20/11/2009 04:17:17 AM 556 Views
21 levels is largely a myth - 20/11/2009 04:27:27 AM 556 Views
Re: 21 levels is largely a myth - 20/11/2009 01:51:17 PM 691 Views
Thanks for the post. Interesting stuff there. *NM* - 20/11/2009 03:14:12 PM 295 Views
That's good to know. - 20/11/2009 07:56:41 PM 524 Views
I have to disagree for a couple of reasons. - 20/11/2009 04:14:40 AM 665 Views
Talaan is not stronger than Nynaeve - 28/11/2009 08:27:22 PM 692 Views
Re: Talaan is not stronger than Nynaeve - 28/11/2009 10:05:15 PM 778 Views
Talaan has be channeling for 6 or 7 years - 28/11/2009 10:56:12 PM 595 Views
Re: I have to disagree for a couple of reasons. - 30/12/2009 12:37:40 AM 1003 Views
Agree with nearly all - 20/11/2009 04:43:47 AM 558 Views
more hopefully to come - 20/11/2009 08:15:00 PM 535 Views
Thanks KCF, that's a great question to ask. - 20/11/2009 08:28:32 PM 758 Views
A little more evidence that Nynaeve is stronger than Semirhage - 29/11/2009 12:12:37 AM 553 Views
I agree that Graendal is the 2nd most powerful woman Forsaken - 29/11/2009 04:07:00 PM 522 Views
It's possible - 30/11/2009 08:23:28 PM 528 Views
Re: It's possible - 01/12/2009 06:18:56 PM 641 Views

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