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Totally disagree... Shannow Send a noteboard - 18/11/2009 08:08:34 PM
There's one potential problem here, and that is Sammael.

I personally think the women list goes like this:

Lanfear / Alivia / (unnamed character option 1)
Sharina / Talaan / Someryn / (unnamed character option 2)
Semirhage / Nynaeve
Cyndane / Mesaana option 1
Graendal / Mesaana option 2
Moghedien

Of importance is that Graendal is on level 5 of the women.

I think the men look like this:

100 - Ishamael / Rand
95 - Aginor(Osan'gar, Dashiva) / Demandred
90 - Rahvin
85 - Be'lal / Balthamel(Aran'gar) option 1
80 - Sammael / Balthamel (Aran'gar) option 2
75 - Asmodean

I know that goes against conventional theory, but I'll explain why I think Sammael was overestimated bigtime in the past. Note that I have Sammael on level 5 of the men.

Moridin says that when Graendal and Sammael are about to fight that he doesn't know who would win. This is one of those quotes that I just don't think we can ever disregard. I completely believe it to be true. He's an third party observant who has intimate knowledge of both Sammael and Graendal's one power abilities. Thus, I've always believed Sammael and Graendal to be pretty much equal.

Now, if it is true that Graendal and Sammael are equal (not in power, but in who would win) then with Rand on level 1, Sammael needs to be on level 5. I don't see how this is possible when we know that Sammael can make a gateway approximately 93.7% the size Rand can make. How do we square that?

Possibly Brandon has given us an answer. There are limits to what one person can do on his own. This could mean that once a person reaches 90 power, he can make a 4 x 4 gateway. A person with 95 power also can make a 4 x 4 gateway. In other words, you couldn't tell any difference between someone with 90 power and someone with 100 power if all you do is compare gateways. Each person could make a 4 x 4 gateway.

In other words, we've been assuming Rand's gateway size as the standard and dividing by 100. But what if we should have been diving by 90 (or some other number) instead of 100? I think that is the ONLY way to fit Sammael into the picture 5 levels below Rand.

Something else I'm certain about is that Rand increased in strength since his fight Sammael in book 7. So maybe why the fight between Rand and Sammael was so close was because, first, Sammael was on defense, and second because Rand was not at full strength yet. Rand was maybe at 80-90% his potential. In other words, Rand (at full strength) against Sammael would be no match. Rand (not at full strength) against Sammael was an equal battle that Rand almost lost, but for help from Moridin. Having Sammael somewhere between 80-85 power fits well with the idea that Sammael and Graendal are about evenly matched.

Having Sammael at 80-85 power also fits well if a channeler can make a 4 x 4 gateway once he/she reaches 90+ power.

We know Sammael has superior skill and tactics as a warrior compared to most others, so his slightly weaker power is made up for by his skill.

When Sammael's strength is compared, it is only book 7 and Rand was somewhere around 85% his total. Rand is stronger at the cleansing, and arguably stronger in tGS because he channels even more through the Choedan Kal. Because Sammael was almost as strong as Rand in book 7, Sammael is roughly about 80 power (level 5 on the male list, and Graendal happens to be at level 5 on the female list)

I think the debate about who is tougher, Sammael or Rahvin, is now at an end. Rahvin is tougher. Rand (with angreal in book 5 matches Rahvin). Rand without angreal in book 7 matches Sammael. We need Rahvin to fill a level between the highest potential (100) and Sammael at level 5. The male Forsaken look like this:



Sammael is one of the top 6 Forsaken. Rahvin is not.

Sammael matches Rand's strength at a later stage than Rahvin did.

Rahvin also acknowledges in Book 5 that Sammael is AT LEAST as strong as he is.

Personally, I think that Moridin's casual comment has been taken WAY out of context, by people trying to justify Graendal's strength.

Moridin simply ackonwledged that One Power battles are unpredictable, and that anything was possible. If Graendal struck faster than Sammael, then his greater strength would mean nothing.
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Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list... - 18/11/2009 05:56:58 PM 2175 Views
Sounds good - 18/11/2009 06:08:15 PM 1085 Views
Re: Sounds good - 18/11/2009 06:12:53 PM 1124 Views
Re: Someryn - 18/11/2009 06:20:44 PM 1131 Views
I acknowledge that possibility... - 18/11/2009 06:24:30 PM 1011 Views
Someryn implies that Graendal is stronger. - 19/11/2009 01:51:31 PM 1105 Views
Excellent point...I'd forgotten about that... - 19/11/2009 02:00:30 PM 1020 Views
As I understand it... - 18/11/2009 06:23:26 PM 1108 Views
My view is that the new list is just a revised one, after RJ changed his mind on some things... - 18/11/2009 06:28:53 PM 1151 Views
Agreed. - 18/11/2009 06:31:22 PM 963 Views
I suppose that's possible. *NM* - 18/11/2009 06:31:42 PM 769 Views
I agree with this interpretation on the new vs. old list - 18/11/2009 07:13:02 PM 1040 Views
Re: Sounds good - 18/11/2009 07:11:17 PM 958 Views
Also, a couple more questions, if I may... - 18/11/2009 07:18:50 PM 951 Views
Re: Also, a couple more questions, if I may... - 18/11/2009 07:23:45 PM 980 Views
One problem... - 18/11/2009 06:10:06 PM 1150 Views
No... - 18/11/2009 06:14:48 PM 1052 Views
That's not a problem. - 18/11/2009 06:31:37 PM 998 Views
Why on earth would there be multiple restrictions on Cyndane's strength? - 18/11/2009 06:47:56 PM 904 Views
Sorry buddy - 18/11/2009 07:36:00 PM 1027 Views
Re: Sorry buddy - 18/11/2009 09:49:01 PM 941 Views
But Nynaeve and Mogheiden were of equal strength - 18/11/2009 06:15:52 PM 1195 Views
Nynaeve matched Moghedien when Nynaeve was not close to her full potential yet... - 18/11/2009 06:19:07 PM 1233 Views
I agree...and I have a question regarding Moghedien. - 18/11/2009 06:30:07 PM 1041 Views
Cyndane has to be above Graendal. *NM* - 18/11/2009 06:33:16 PM 579 Views
You're right. I'll post new list below. *NM* - 18/11/2009 06:39:36 PM 599 Views
Was she? Nyn was mid20s and a wilder, I thought she had reached full strength - 18/11/2009 08:00:24 PM 1075 Views
She really hasn't had that much time channelling though. - 18/11/2009 08:07:31 PM 744 Views
Wilders rarely reach their full potential if they're blocked. *NM* - 18/11/2009 08:43:30 PM 619 Views
I know the Cleansing forced her a bit. - 18/11/2009 08:44:59 PM 1030 Views
That's been said before- anyone know where it says that in the text? - 19/11/2009 05:53:50 AM 813 Views
More or less agreed. I was right about Nynaeve! - 18/11/2009 06:29:27 PM 956 Views
IMO... - 18/11/2009 06:37:19 PM 1070 Views
I don't know... - 18/11/2009 06:56:10 PM 939 Views
I still think Alivia is below Lanfear's strength level... - 18/11/2009 06:59:01 PM 1250 Views
That just doesn't make sense... - 18/11/2009 07:02:17 PM 1066 Views
I agree that Lanfear and Alivia are tied. *NM* - 18/11/2009 07:06:19 PM 607 Views
All of my instincts indeed argue that 4 of the Forsaken CANNOT be below Nynaeve, but... - 18/11/2009 07:06:25 PM 898 Views
But why doesn't it make sense? - 18/11/2009 08:47:42 PM 795 Views
I don't think... - 18/11/2009 07:08:09 PM 1130 Views
Damane never recieve special status... - 18/11/2009 08:52:32 PM 926 Views
Good point... - 18/11/2009 09:00:51 PM 959 Views
Thing is... - 18/11/2009 09:10:45 PM 1010 Views
My point was... - 18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM 998 Views
I agree *NM* - 18/11/2009 09:10:46 PM 567 Views
If Tuon had the strongest... - 18/11/2009 09:12:22 PM 911 Views
Sera must be stronger... - 18/11/2009 09:25:00 PM 907 Views
There's no reason to be certain about it... - 18/11/2009 09:28:26 PM 952 Views
Well, the Bloodknives are precisely Tuon's tools - 18/11/2009 09:32:46 PM 909 Views
There are SIX women stronger than Nynaeve, and at least five are accounted for... - 18/11/2009 09:46:28 PM 957 Views
There are six stronger women named on the list - 19/11/2009 11:40:52 AM 966 Views
I'm not ignoring Sera! - 19/11/2009 06:13:43 PM 831 Views
You misunderstand me... - 19/11/2009 06:16:31 PM 918 Views
I doesn't make "sense". Let's leave it... - 19/11/2009 06:19:52 PM 910 Views
But Alivia (while strong in the OP) is an old fraile lady on her deathbed. *NM* - 18/11/2009 09:41:33 PM 602 Views
Pardon? Don't understand this really. *NM* - 19/11/2009 11:45:21 AM 444 Views
You keep saying Alivia was "a common damane" - 28/11/2009 08:58:42 PM 796 Views
You were right about Nynaeve, I was right about Graendal! Well done! - 18/11/2009 06:37:42 PM 1049 Views
Yes. This is one WoT debate coming to a close... - 18/11/2009 06:54:06 PM 820 Views
I have one problem with your list. - 18/11/2009 06:36:02 PM 1014 Views
RJ said the Forsaken ALWAYS overrate themselves... - 18/11/2009 06:54:45 PM 871 Views
Mesaana is cold and calculating. - 18/11/2009 07:03:49 PM 921 Views
I'm sorry, but I find it mindblowing that you find this mindblowing. - 18/11/2009 06:36:37 PM 959 Views
Some of us have been debating this for 5 years on Wotmania... - 18/11/2009 06:57:08 PM 1015 Views
I think it goes like this: - 18/11/2009 06:53:07 PM 953 Views
There is a side effect to all of this rearrangement...we may have to rethink the wonder girls. - 18/11/2009 07:04:17 PM 1017 Views
We'll have to re-read the sections where Moghedien is captured. - 18/11/2009 07:08:07 PM 919 Views
Damn. That's a thought I definitely DON'T relish. Thankfully... - 18/11/2009 07:09:18 PM 948 Views
Where does she say this? - 18/11/2009 08:54:39 PM 957 Views
No, she explicitly refers to herself vs Moghedien... - 18/11/2009 09:01:53 PM 954 Views
Here are the quotes... - 18/11/2009 09:24:24 PM 970 Views
Oh come on. You're totally twisting that passage to suit your argument... - 18/11/2009 09:54:56 PM 860 Views
I could say the same... - 18/11/2009 10:50:44 PM 883 Views
So let me get this straight... - 19/11/2009 06:44:03 AM 899 Views
No... - 19/11/2009 07:37:29 AM 951 Views
Look at it this way... - 19/11/2009 10:23:06 AM 926 Views
Dude, there were other quotes... - 19/11/2009 06:15:32 PM 833 Views
What about Sammael? The debate about Sammael and Rahvin has been decided now too. - 18/11/2009 08:03:35 PM 993 Views
Totally disagree... - 18/11/2009 08:08:34 PM 1041 Views
Re: Totally disagree... - 18/11/2009 08:22:07 PM 929 Views
Males likely go like this... - 18/11/2009 08:27:27 PM 888 Views
Dude, Rand is scared of Graendal... - 18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM 896 Views
Disagree... - 18/11/2009 09:09:45 PM 1008 Views
Disagree back... for the last time though... - 18/11/2009 09:39:25 PM 853 Views
About the top 6... - 18/11/2009 10:08:37 PM 937 Views
And One Power Battles turn political on a regualr basis, do they? - 18/11/2009 10:54:35 PM 981 Views
That's ridiculous... - 19/11/2009 07:19:08 AM 873 Views
Re: That's ridiculous... - 19/11/2009 08:08:14 AM 909 Views
Well... - 19/11/2009 10:29:45 AM 910 Views
This is getting idiotic... - 19/11/2009 06:19:08 PM 910 Views
Re: Dude, Rand is scared of Graendal... - 10/12/2010 07:31:18 PM 911 Views
If Rahvin were stronger... - 18/11/2009 08:59:32 PM 886 Views
Disagreement - 19/11/2009 01:39:49 AM 1011 Views
Some more from Brandon... - 19/11/2009 04:29:41 AM 910 Views
So we're back where we started? - 19/11/2009 04:56:36 AM 712 Views
Re: So we're back where we started? - 19/11/2009 05:18:15 AM 1001 Views
Someone must ask him: Is Cyndane one of the 6 above Nynaeve. - 19/11/2009 05:35:10 AM 869 Views
My opinion: down this path lies insanity. - 19/11/2009 02:53:59 PM 948 Views
Thoughts - 19/11/2009 04:55:09 AM 1010 Views

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