Can you clarify - are you saying my reading of the sentence is correct or incorrect?
Shannow Send a noteboard - 15/11/2009 07:59:46 AM
In my first post after reading tGS, I commented that Sanderson missed a beat by not referring directly to Semirhage’s strength once during this book.
Having now had an opportunity to go through the relevant chapters again, I believe that Brandon Sanderson might well disagree and argue that he has given ample reference to Semirhage’s strength in the Power in this book.
Thanks to the luxury of a bit more time, I have provided all the references I could find in this regard:
Prologue, Graendal:
“She is a member of the little alliance you two have made. Perhaps the strongest member”.
To me this suggests that Semirhage is considered by Graendal to be at least as powerful among the females as Demandred is among the males. And we know that Demandred was only a hair’s breadth behind Lews Therin in strength.
Having now had an opportunity to go through the relevant chapters again, I believe that Brandon Sanderson might well disagree and argue that he has given ample reference to Semirhage’s strength in the Power in this book.
Thanks to the luxury of a bit more time, I have provided all the references I could find in this regard:
Prologue, Graendal:
“She is a member of the little alliance you two have made. Perhaps the strongest member”.
To me this suggests that Semirhage is considered by Graendal to be at least as powerful among the females as Demandred is among the males. And we know that Demandred was only a hair’s breadth behind Lews Therin in strength.
I've never thought Semirhage was weak, especially not with the Power. But Graendal's overall impression seems to be that between Semrihage, Graendal herself, and Demandred, what matters is the psychology. To me, it reeks of their OP strengths being close enough that the differences don't matter.
Prologue, Rand:
“Where Nynaeve wasn’t a surprise, Alivia was. Rand hadn’t been aware the former damane had been involved in the…information gathering. Still, she was supposed to be even stronger than Nynaeve in the Power, so perhaps she had been brought for support. Once could never be too careful where the Forsaken were concerned.”
This could be Sanderson’s way of saying that you need someone of Alivia’s strength to match Semirhage.
“Where Nynaeve wasn’t a surprise, Alivia was. Rand hadn’t been aware the former damane had been involved in the…information gathering. Still, she was supposed to be even stronger than Nynaeve in the Power, so perhaps she had been brought for support. Once could never be too careful where the Forsaken were concerned.”
This could be Sanderson’s way of saying that you need someone of Alivia’s strength to match Semirhage.
Well no. I read this very, very differently.
He sees Alivia as "support", and mentions being "too careful" with the Forsaken. If Alivia is support/extra precaution, that means Nynaeve herself must be a match. By bringing along a woman even stronger than Semirhage, they are taking even greater caution.
Another thing, the "even stronger than Nynaeve" shows quite a healthy respect on Rand's behalf for Nynaeve's strength.
A Tale of Blood, Cadsuane:
“Outside the room, Erian, Sarene and Nesune held the prisoner’s shield, two more than were normally considered necessary. One did not take chances with the Forsaken.”
I cannot find the scene where only 1 sister supposedly holds Semirhage’s shield. If this passage is what gave rise to this rumour, then I reject it completely. Upon rereading this passage, it is clear that Cadsuane is referring to the normal practice of only 1 sister holding a prisoner’s shield. Normally, that appears to be more than sufficient. But she is in no way indicating that she has EVER considered using this normal practice where Semirhage is concerned. In fact, Semirhage’s strength seems to have convinced her that at least 3 sisters are necessary for the shield to be secure. This is corroborated in A Box Opens, where Cadsuane notes that the Aes Sedai maintaining Semirhage’s shield sat in THEIR places outside the room. Again, multiple Aes Sedai maintaining the shield.
And again, in Questions of Control, where Cadsuane says:
“There were several others in the hallway with her – Dagian, Erian, Elza – whose turn it was to maintain Semirhage’s shield.”
Again, three women holding the shield, though the hyphens made it confusing at first read. When you read it again, I believe it is clear that all three women between the hyphens are holding the shield, not just Elza. Someone with greater grammar skills than I, please tell me if I read that sentence incorrectly.
“Outside the room, Erian, Sarene and Nesune held the prisoner’s shield, two more than were normally considered necessary. One did not take chances with the Forsaken.”
I cannot find the scene where only 1 sister supposedly holds Semirhage’s shield. If this passage is what gave rise to this rumour, then I reject it completely. Upon rereading this passage, it is clear that Cadsuane is referring to the normal practice of only 1 sister holding a prisoner’s shield. Normally, that appears to be more than sufficient. But she is in no way indicating that she has EVER considered using this normal practice where Semirhage is concerned. In fact, Semirhage’s strength seems to have convinced her that at least 3 sisters are necessary for the shield to be secure. This is corroborated in A Box Opens, where Cadsuane notes that the Aes Sedai maintaining Semirhage’s shield sat in THEIR places outside the room. Again, multiple Aes Sedai maintaining the shield.
And again, in Questions of Control, where Cadsuane says:
“There were several others in the hallway with her – Dagian, Erian, Elza – whose turn it was to maintain Semirhage’s shield.”
Again, three women holding the shield, though the hyphens made it confusing at first read. When you read it again, I believe it is clear that all three women between the hyphens are holding the shield, not just Elza. Someone with greater grammar skills than I, please tell me if I read that sentence incorrectly.
You did. And now that you've pointed it out, I agree that Cadsuane never thought one woman, the traditional number, is enough to hold Semrihage.
Then later in Tales of Blood, Cadsuane has this interesting tidbit to share:
“How did you break one of the most powerful women who had ever lived?”
Cadsuane then goes on to ALSO talk about Semirhage’s atrocities, and reputation for torture, but as seperate issues. That first sentence referred specifically to her being one of the most POWERFUL women who had ever lived. To me, this reinforces once again that Sanderson is conveying to us that Semirhage has exceptional strength in the Power.
“How did you break one of the most powerful women who had ever lived?”
Cadsuane then goes on to ALSO talk about Semirhage’s atrocities, and reputation for torture, but as seperate issues. That first sentence referred specifically to her being one of the most POWERFUL women who had ever lived. To me, this reinforces once again that Sanderson is conveying to us that Semirhage has exceptional strength in the Power.
Like we really needed that!The Plan for Arad Doman, Nynaeve:
She herself was so strong in the Power – one of the strongest alive – that she often took little thought for her ability. It was much like a very tall man rarely paid attention to other people’s height; everyone was shorter than he, and so their different heights didn’t matter much.”
This is a VERY interesting description by Sanderson. Firstly, I would like to compare the way he has Nynaeve describe herself as on of the strongest channelers ALIVE, to Cadsuane’s description of Semirhage as “one of the most powerful women who had EVER LIVED”.
She herself was so strong in the Power – one of the strongest alive – that she often took little thought for her ability. It was much like a very tall man rarely paid attention to other people’s height; everyone was shorter than he, and so their different heights didn’t matter much.”
This is a VERY interesting description by Sanderson. Firstly, I would like to compare the way he has Nynaeve describe herself as on of the strongest channelers ALIVE, to Cadsuane’s description of Semirhage as “one of the most powerful women who had EVER LIVED”.
Ahhh... but Semirhage is alive, and Nynaeve knows that. If she was stronger than her (and if Alivia herself were much stronger), I think Nynaeve would have had a rider about so many women being stronger than her. But with just one woman stronger than her in Rand's camp, and a Forsaken as her equal, Nynaeve's statement makes complete sense.
The height analogy is critical. I think no one woman exists who is so strong that Nynaeve feels completely dwarfed by her. Which makes sense, especially if she equals Semirhage, as these quotes suggest.
Nynaeve was also described earlier in the series as having the potential to be the most powerful Aes Sedai in a thousand years. That’s somewhat short of the description Cadsuane had for Semirhage.
We also have someone else say she is probably the strongest woman to have entered the Tower. Matches what Cadsaune is saying here.
Then, later in the same chapter we have Nynaeve again:
“Rand should stick up for himself more – that woman had him tamed, and it was unsettling how much he let her get away with. Like questioning Semirhage. The Forsaken was far too powerful AND dangerous to treat lightly. Semirhage should have been stilled the moment they captured her.”
Do you see the message here? One moment Nynaeve is saying how you never consider another channeler's strength if you are stronger than they are, and the next moment she says Semirhage is far too powerful to treat lightly. Note the distinction she makes between Semirhage’s general dangerous nature, and her POWER.
“Rand should stick up for himself more – that woman had him tamed, and it was unsettling how much he let her get away with. Like questioning Semirhage. The Forsaken was far too powerful AND dangerous to treat lightly. Semirhage should have been stilled the moment they captured her.”
Do you see the message here? One moment Nynaeve is saying how you never consider another channeler's strength if you are stronger than they are, and the next moment she says Semirhage is far too powerful to treat lightly. Note the distinction she makes between Semirhage’s general dangerous nature, and her POWER.
Actually, put together, I think this is what Nynaeve is saying:
"I'm amazingly strong. The Aes Sedai are like gnats before me. Is Rand crazy? Here is another woman as powerful as I am, and she knows so much. Can mere Aes Sedai take care of one like that?"
She clearly thinks Cadsuane is getting away with something by questioning Semi, meaning she thinks Caddy and her AS are too weak. Add together her own view of how strong she is, it makes sense that she matches Semirhage.
Very interesting indeed.
In conclusion, I think Sanderson might well feel surprised at a suggestion that he did not make sufficient reference to Semrihage’s great strength in the Power in this book. If you combine all of the quotes above, I think there is a compelling argument that Semirhage is in fact more powerful than any other woman in Rand’s group, or at the very least equal to Alivia in strength, as Rand’s unwitting hint in the Prologue might suggest.
Just like Rand’s unwitting hint in FoH that Rahvin must be more or less of the same strength as he was at the time of their confrontation. Sometimes the author’s voice can be heard through the point of view of one of the characters. I think this was another example of that. Especially if you read it in conjunction with all the other references to Semirhage’s power in this book.
In conclusion, I think Sanderson might well feel surprised at a suggestion that he did not make sufficient reference to Semrihage’s great strength in the Power in this book. If you combine all of the quotes above, I think there is a compelling argument that Semirhage is in fact more powerful than any other woman in Rand’s group, or at the very least equal to Alivia in strength, as Rand’s unwitting hint in the Prologue might suggest.
Just like Rand’s unwitting hint in FoH that Rahvin must be more or less of the same strength as he was at the time of their confrontation. Sometimes the author’s voice can be heard through the point of view of one of the characters. I think this was another example of that. Especially if you read it in conjunction with all the other references to Semirhage’s power in this book.
I think the reason me and Siddy were pissed is that these quotes can mean anything. All we can derive from all this is that Semirhage, Nynaeve and Alivia are all extremely strong. But how things stand between them is anyone's guess. A direct comparison would have helped.
When you replied: "You are indeed", are you saying I am indeed reading that sentence incorrectly, or correctly?
Because your following sentences seem to indicate that you agree with me that there were never fewer than 3 sisters holding Semirhage's shield.
Semirhage's One Power strength revisited - this time with extensive quotes from the new book...
- 14/11/2009 11:36:24 PM
1306 Views
There are other ways to interpret these, though...
- 15/11/2009 12:15:35 AM
813 Views
Can I just ask why on earth it matters so much? 
- 15/11/2009 12:45:48 AM
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- 15/11/2009 12:45:48 AM
686 Views
List making is a feature of obsessive personalities...
- 15/11/2009 01:17:47 AM
715 Views
Cool, did you really predict it?
- 15/11/2009 11:36:47 AM
681 Views
Not 100% of the way there, unfortunately..
- 15/11/2009 12:51:04 PM
653 Views
*NM*
Did someone say they had a copy of the old theories somewhere? *NM*
- 15/11/2009 01:06:42 PM
272 Views
Can you clarify - are you saying my reading of the sentence is correct or incorrect?
- 15/11/2009 07:59:46 AM
674 Views
I think you're correct, and one sister was never used to hold Semirhage.
- 15/11/2009 08:07:55 AM
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I guess
- 15/11/2009 06:49:49 AM
574 Views
I forgot to add Sheriam's quote about Mesaana's strength...
- 15/11/2009 07:25:48 AM
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Re: I forgot to add Sheriam's quote about Mesaana's strength...
- 15/11/2009 07:34:38 AM
732 Views
I think it's just because Graendal got more "airtime" in the books.
- 15/11/2009 08:08:02 AM
780 Views
Re: I think it's just because Graendal got more "airtime" in the books.
- 15/11/2009 11:01:04 AM
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I took it as obvious that Nynaeve was actually stronger than Semirhage
- 12/12/2009 12:41:17 AM
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