Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: Anyone passing the Accepted Test must believe in a WT supremacy, by Cannoli

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Re: Anyone passing the Accepted Test must believe in a WT supremacy, Cannoli Send a noteboard - 12/11/2009 02:57:55 AM

Then when Egwene starts to test all the new novices, she would find out that many of them do not come out, as they are not indoctrinated yet, and not ideologically pure!

Where she goes from there would have a lot to do with my perception of her as a leader. Even if I still think she's an ass and a lousy person, tGS has made it possible for me to respect her leadership, depending on if she can walk the walk. Something like this situation will be very telling.

Now here is another point. What you are proposing essentically comes down to the model of channeler organization. Should we have a single powerful organization like the WT, or have several small like-minded subgroups (organized as Ajah or Kin), with a governing body coordinating their interactions.

Neither. What should be the model for a business or a government? Whatever suits those who are making it up. I see channelers forming into organizations that are all about being channelers (like the WT), or have a specific purpose in mind to which channeling is a means to that end (like the Black Tower), or are even corporations or individuals who sell channeling services for profit or a guild to which such businesses and channelers might belong. I see no problem with all of these existing in the same world with overlapping jurisdictions and so on. Channeling should be a tool, and viewed the same way firearms, or internal combustion engines, are in the real world. The use is entirely up to the users and the makers and those who pay for either. IMO your alternatives are simply organizational varients.

But basically, it comes down to how much power the Federal government should have, and how much power the States should have.

Good eye. Except I am also saying to throw a King and a Theocracy and a Plutocracy and a military dictatorship and a bunch of town-hall-democracies and corporations into the mix. I don't see the channeling population as a single nation to be organized under a single principle, I see it the same way I see the population of muscular people: free to choose how to associate and for what purpose, and neither permitted to be enslaved by non-muscular people nor to dominate the non-muscular.
Regarding the Federalist vs Nationalist issue, I've been curious for a long time about how the perceptions of the readers might intersect with their political visions, but have been unable to figure out ways to study the notion.

You and Egwene obviously disagree on such fundamental principles, so you just can't get along with her. People who believing in a powerful central government will also strongly disagree with you. Since this is really just a political debate using WOT facts, I doubt people will ever change their minds on this, unless they change their minds on their political philosophy first, from RL experience.

But if I can get them to see the underpining difference in philosophies and how they influence understanding of such issues, it could mean interesting things for discussions.

From the WOT writings, it appears so far that RJ does not embrace the State Rights strongly, unless he is pulling the wool over my eyes, which is very possible.

Hence my comment about Calhoun & Hampton. The man is from the cradle of States Rights! Of course I'm from one of the Bluest of Blue states (NJ), and look at me.

It is still possible that RJ set up the WT as the big bad wolf to fall in the end. He could have Ajahs, Wind-finders, Kin, WO, BT as the States with self governing bodies with full rights. RJ has already set up the Oath Rod as a Binder for criminals. I can even see Rand reveals the Acceptron as a screening device used by a Cult in AOL from LTT's memory.

That would be hilarious.

Being the sneaky, sneaky Brown, RJ could pull another Verin on the WT on us. You just never know.

Fingers crossed.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*

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/Miscellaneous: A better ending to the Tower struggle? Cannoli - 11/11/2009 03:30:40 AM 1320 Views

Re: /Miscellaneous: A better ending to the Tower struggle? artois - 11/11/2009 04:00:00 AM 540 Views

Personal aside re: Egwene Cannoli - 11/11/2009 04:08:46 AM 715 Views

Re: Personal aside re: Egwene artois - 11/11/2009 04:29:58 AM 539 Views

Nuclear weapons were only deployed when ONE country had them. Never since. Cannoli - 11/11/2009 06:15:23 AM 536 Views

This is a ridiculously idealistic viewpoint... fionwe1987 - 11/11/2009 06:31:14 AM 651 Views

Re: This is a ridiculously idealistic viewpoint... Cannoli - 11/11/2009 08:35:07 AM 563 Views

The World is messy artois - 11/11/2009 06:42:16 AM 483 Views

And without a structure, how much damage can any individual do? Cannoli - 11/11/2009 08:40:53 AM 507 Views

I must say... fionwe1987 - 11/11/2009 06:00:18 AM 642 Views

Cannoli is the Perez Hilton of WoT. Pretty obvious. Bookwyrm - 11/11/2009 06:11:45 AM 622 Views

You're being absurd! Cannoli - 11/11/2009 07:44:06 AM 780 Views

Rhuidean? artois - 11/11/2009 08:05:43 AM 503 Views

Re: Rhuidean? Cannoli - 11/11/2009 08:42:37 AM 545 Views

I think that Cannoli is the Man, but... Team Aan'allein - 13/11/2009 02:30:03 PM 458 Views

Channelers making ter'angreal for ordinary people to use (a common AoL practice, BTW) is insane? *NM* Cannoli - 13/11/2009 03:51:33 PM 181 Views

If I recall correctly- those were the last of the 'true' Aes Sedai. Chas - 11/11/2009 06:02:38 PM 538 Views

Actually the BWB or RJ said no AoL Aes Sedai survived the Breaking. Cannoli - 12/11/2009 02:32:36 AM 482 Views

The Aes Sedai in Rhuidean may have been an exception Sidious - 12/11/2009 04:15:32 AM 443 Views

Also, "The Breaking" lasted a long time beetnemesis - 12/11/2009 07:16:57 AM 432 Views

Technically, the Breaking ended when the last Male AS died, so female AS could survive past it *NM* redhand - 12/11/2009 03:42:01 PM 197 Views

Yes, but they did not. *NM* Cannoli - 13/11/2009 03:50:18 PM 216 Views

That could be true but I seem to recall it being said/implied that they were tasked with their duty Chas - 12/11/2009 11:29:33 PM 487 Views

The thing is ... Bookwyrm - 11/11/2009 06:05:58 AM 572 Views

Agree and Disagree artois - 11/11/2009 06:30:54 AM 446 Views

We can hope... but I honestly don't see it happening. It's complicated. beetnemesis - 11/11/2009 06:47:27 AM 582 Views

You might be right but... artois - 11/11/2009 07:08:19 AM 491 Views

Re: You might be right but... Myrdhyn - 12/11/2009 06:37:48 PM 450 Views

Why don't you point to the place where I am prescribing a course of action for the immediate future? Cannoli - 11/11/2009 08:03:07 AM 587 Views

You answered your own question beetnemesis - 11/11/2009 06:32:17 AM 461 Views

It wouldn's work in the westlands AgentOrange - 11/11/2009 01:13:54 PM 455 Views

Well, hopefully there would be people to stop her, just like in the real world. *NM* Cannoli - 12/11/2009 02:58:54 AM 223 Views

Anyone passing the Accepted Test must believe in a WT supremacy, redhand - 11/11/2009 01:45:25 PM 462 Views

Re: Anyone passing the Accepted Test must believe in a WT supremacy, Cannoli - 12/11/2009 02:57:55 AM 556 Views

So, what you're saying is that Aes Sedai should actually live up to their name? Chas - 11/11/2009 05:33:50 PM 483 Views

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<quote id="46520">
<quote>Then when Egwene starts to test all the new novices, she would find out that many of them do not come out, as they are not indoctrinated yet, and not ideologically pure!</quote> Where she goes from there would have a lot to do with my perception of her as a leader.  Even if I still think she's an ass and a lousy person, tGS has made it possible for me to respect her leadership, depending on if she can walk the walk.  Something like this situation will be very telling.
 
<quote>Now here is another point. What you are proposing essentically comes down to the model of channeler organization. Should we have a single powerful organization like the WT, or have several small like-minded subgroups (organized as Ajah or Kin), with a governing body coordinating their interactions. </quote> Neither.  What should be the model for a business or a government?  Whatever suits those who are making it up.  I see channelers forming into organizations that are all about being channelers (like the WT), or have a specific purpose in mind to which channeling is a means to that end (like the Black Tower), or are even corporations or individuals who sell channeling services for profit or a guild to which such businesses and channelers might belong.  I see no problem with all of these existing in the same world with overlapping jurisdictions and so on.  Channeling should be a tool, and viewed the same way firearms, or internal combustion engines, are in the real world.  The use is entirely up to the users and the makers and those who pay for either.  IMO your alternatives are simply organizational varients.

<quote>But basically, it comes down to how much power the Federal government should have, and how much power the States should have.</quote> Good eye.  Except I am also saying to throw a King and a Theocracy and a Plutocracy and a military dictatorship and a bunch of town-hall-democracies and corporations into the mix.  I don't see the channeling population as a single nation to be organized under a single principle, I see it the same way I see the population of muscular people: free to choose how to associate and for what purpose, and neither permitted to be enslaved by non-muscular people nor to dominate the non-muscular.  
Regarding the Federalist vs Nationalist issue, I've been curious for a long time about how the perceptions of the readers might intersect with their political visions, but have been unable to figure out ways to study the notion.

<quote>You and Egwene obviously disagree on such fundamental principles, so you just can't get along with her. People who believing in a powerful central government will also strongly disagree with you. Since this is really just a political debate using WOT facts, I doubt people will ever change their minds on this, unless they change their minds on their political philosophy first, from RL experience.</quote> But if I can get them to see the underpining difference in philosophies and how they influence understanding of such issues, it could mean interesting things for discussions.

<quote>From the WOT writings, it appears so far that RJ does not embrace the State Rights strongly, unless he is pulling the wool over my eyes, which is very possible. </quote> Hence my comment about Calhoun & Hampton.  The man is from the cradle of States Rights!  Of course I'm from one of the Bluest of Blue states (NJ), and look at me.

<quote>It is still possible that RJ set up the WT as the big bad wolf to fall in the end. He could have Ajahs, Wind-finders, Kin, WO, BT as the States with self governing bodies with full rights. RJ has already set up the Oath Rod as a Binder for criminals. I can even see Rand reveals the Acceptron as a screening device used by a Cult in AOL from LTT's memory.</quote> That would be hilarious.

<quote>Being the sneaky, sneaky Brown, RJ could pull another Verin on the WT on us. You just never know. </quote> Fingers crossed.
</quote>

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