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Re: I have... Cannoli Send a noteboard - 01/11/2009 02:27:20 AM
You don't, because wielding the Power does not make you a power hungry megalomaniac.
No, being born does.

Bull shit. Use your sul'dam to find women who can channel, and instead of torturing and enslaving them, kill them. Continue doing this, don't stop with the current generation. End of story.
Once again, wrong on the details. The sul'dam don't find crap, or can't without the damane to detect them. Some long-time sul'dam might be able to sense the Power, but it is hardly a reliable means. And even if they could find channelers without damane, then what?

Well, since they haven't, I'm waiting to see what twisted logic you'll use to "prove" that they have.
Oh, let me guess. The BWB contradicts your private fan-fiction version of what happened, so it doesn't count. Because that is where it tells of how the Tower wiped out all other groups of Aes Sedai who would not submit to them! And the books themselves show that the practice is continued to this day. They do supress any other attempts to organize, and do so violently, inflicting pain and humiliation on anyone who dares have a fellow channeler friend.

But these girls can quit any time they want. Just refuse the test for Accepted thrice, and you're not only free to go, you're also given a fat purse of gold to start you up in the world!
And do you really think they let someone like that go as easily as that? Do you think that after the second refusal, they won't make special efforts to "make her see the error of her ways"? Do you think that she would ever get a chance to take that test for the third time until they were absolutely satisfied she was making an honest effort? Do you think that women with centuries of experience training recalcitrant young girls and guiding them to their proper Ajahs and making them into the mold of what they expect from a sister will not be able to tell when a girl is pulling this stunt, and make her regret it? Hell, they send you to the kitchens for weeks just because you have a different opinion from a sister on issues of historical causality! Do you REALLY think they are going to let a strong channeler walk?

How does it help them? If they used it ruthlessly like the Sanchan did (say they used it against Hawkwing's besiegers), they be dominating the land in ways they can only dream of with just politics and manipulation.
You are assuming this would happen in a vaccuum. Sure, it might happen the way you suggest if they all of the sudden decided to drop the Oaths during the siege and marched out blasting away at Maravaile & his army, but in the first place, you are forgetting they were up against a Great Captain, possibly the best general in history, with more than enough resources. Rodel Ituralde hurt the Seanchan badly, despite greatly inferior numbers. Only the great numerical superiority of the Seanchan (including in channelers) made his defeat inevitable. With Hawkwing, those numbers would be reversed. Let the Aes Sedai loose the One Power as a weapon for political domination, and the recruiting of the Children of the Light will skyrocket! Every hand would be turned against them in fear, and they would not have any other political power or influence other than what they could hold through force of the One Power. And you would have patriotic channelers who would go to their king once they discovered they could channel and offer their services, or else a mercenary channeler. That is how the Seanchan Imperials got the a'dam in the first place, you may recall. Who is to say a man like Hawkwing, nearly universally beloved and a military & political genius to boot would not have had his own channeling organization to counter the White Tower. Even if it could not match the Tower in numbers or skill, it would still have a disproportionate effect in battle. With his military superiority even a few channelers would go a long way to giving Hawkwing the ability to beat the Tower.

And why exactly will the Tower leave rulers free to gather channelers? They can snap up whom they want, and if they can use the Power as a weapon, which King has the ability to stop them?
How will they keep all the channelers loyal? They can't even stop the Kin from keeping their true strength and longevity secret, even though every woman in the Kin has her name in the Tower's records! A patriotic channeler, a clever clerk or minister, and soon the kingdom has a small force of channelers sufficient to thwart anything the Tower does short of a full-scale battle. In THAT situation, kings have armies they can bring to bear. In order to match rulers, the Tower would have to get down into the mud and begin ruling territory and raising armies and lose their special status.

Anyway, by showing that the Aes Sedai chose a path of lesser power for the sake of greater peace, you defeat your own argument that hey are like the Seanchan.
I showed nothing of the kind. They chose the path of lesser overt power to claim greater authority.

Why? I think you need to explain why you believe channelers are inherently more evil.
I never did. They are people, and as such, not to be trusted, especially with exclusive access to such a power. I am opposed to anyone having too much power, which is one reason for my approval of Elayne - she shows her willingness to stay within her legal limitations in both principle and action. I AGREE with every word Egwene's contentions regarding Elaida's use of power and abuse of authority. My complaint in that regard has ALWAYS been not that she was wrong or that Elaida was innocent, but that in her own way, she was as guilty as Elaida. My main reservation about Egwene's victory (aside from the unwarranted praise being heaped on her) is that her inaugural address hints at a tyranny to come. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I would rather see channelers personally subordinated to rulers for the same reason I believe in having military power answerable to civilian authority. An organization like the White Tower combines channeling with political power, and uses those influences to gain wealth and military power as anyone with political power does, but that is just too many types of power concentrated. If every nation had its own Tower, by the nature of things, channelers and political authorities would clash to protect their own interests, much in the way the kings of Illian feud with the Council of the Nine, or the King & Panarch of Tarabon have split power, or the Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs and roofmistresses get touchy about the others touching on their business. Seperation of power benefits everyone. That is my objection to the Tower. I am not enthusiastic about rulers having the power over channelers either, mind you. I merely think it preferable to the Tower-wetlands setup currently in place. At least the rulers are answerable to their national laws and to some extent to their people. The Tower is not answerable to anyone.

As I see it, channeling is merely a tool. It can be used fo good or ill, and that is the case whether channelers use the ability, or someone else uses the ability through them. Its not like ordering assassination is morally different from holding the gun and shooting someone yourself!
So better to have that power in the hands of lawful authorities than an independant organization that answers to no one. Which would be better? One single international army that answered to no government, that confiscated weapons from - or else conscripted - anyone who they caught picking one up, or every nation having its own army to defend its own interests and people? Yes, there would be less fighting in such a world, but some things, such as freedom and justice, are worth fighting for! And there would be no guarantee that such a system would provide justice or freedom, because that hypothetical uber-army would consist of human beings with all their flaws and corruptibility. The reason virtues are so admired and prized is because like all highly valued things, they are extremely rare.

Because nothing differentiated normal people and channelers except the ability to channel! The a'dam all but makes normal people channelers. So what has changed?
Nothing. I'd as soon be rid of it, but it is a necessary evil. At least this way, the channelers (in this case the sul'dam) are under the same law as everyone else. No one ever mentions anything like a seperate special court for sul'dam, the way the Aes Sedai get one. Why should Perrin NOT have the right to try and execute Galina on charges of being a Darkfriend, if she had been caught? He WAS the closest thing to a lawful authority in the region.

I'll give Egwene credit for this - she's not letting the Tower conceal the Black Ajah or sweep the threat under a rug to protect teh Tower's image. Before tGS, I would have said better to let Perrin try Galina than turn her over to the Tower which has lots of motivations to vindicate her, not least of which is the absolute refusal of most of their initiates to entertain the notion. Hopefully, Egwene has put paid to that practice and that self-deluding fallacy, though in the true spirit of WoT, I anticipate the loyalists retaining their skepticism, because they didn't witness the purge of the rebel camp. On the other hand, they actually have genuinely earned respect for her, so perhaps that will stifle their old impulses.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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