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I think we are saying similar things darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 12/03/2017 08:31:13 PM

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Everyone has motivations, and taking out religion deprives the author of the means of explaining motivations of characters through that prism. It might not be needed in a world where the divine is immanent in places and through avatars, and it seems like Jordan was perhaps initially thinking in that way, not only with the Forsaken, but also with the odd Green Man in the first book. However, he never really developed that idea and quickly moved away from it. I think it was a mistake. I can't think of other fantasy series that are bereft of religion the way Wheel of Time is, though I'll admit I don't read a ton of them.

It isn't a lack of "faith", they have loads of THAT, so much as... Complete and unquestioning certainty.

Personally at it's core it is the stereotypical "Scientist who believe only in logic, reason, and that which can be scientifically proven"... After you give said scientist the ability to 100% prove the existence of everything from fate, God, the soul, to just out and out magic.

The weird thing is how the bloody HELL the mindset survived the Breaking... It's as if after having proven the undeniable existence of such things, they decided to program their findings into the recently proven to exist genetic memory humanity(aka:the old blood) so as to stop any future holy war... Having forgotten, of course, that they had just proven the existence of Gods perfectly capable of starting up their own.


WoT humans are the type that if they met some kind of new god, would have no problem believing in their divinity, they can see their power with their own two eyes after all, but... Would nevertheless try and haggle out their every last miracle and blessing... Would likely end up rather pissing off some more egotistical deities.

Edit: And mind... The AoL was the age that kept it's entire population under the effects of happy-fun-time trees 24-10.


They had undeniable proof of the One Power, but the Creator and Dark One aren't actually proven to exist on a mass scale until Lanfear/Meiren let the Dark One loose in the 2nd Age and he turned out to be sentient, from what we know of that moment Mieren wasn't expecting anything other than a possible new source of power for Channeling. We never really see any evidence that prior to this anyone had proof of a living Creator. In fact they seemed far more vested in scientific uses and origin of the Power and perhaps only gave a nod to the Creator's existence from earlier Ages (such as our own) where there may well have been holy wars fought until the OP discovery, perhaps the catalyst for acceptance of "one true god". I got the impression that in the AOL people primarily thought of the OP as an energy source (ala Nuclear Power) and the rest was mostly social nicety. Of course that isn't to say that there was NO belief at all ... non-Channelers may well have viewed Channelers as something akin to demi-gods or angels or demons if there was a system of faith we are unaware of.


Well, look at what we know. We know that they can prove the existence of the soul because the OP can enter act with it. Touch it. Effect it, even remove it. Indeed, once removed we know that by WoT metaphysics you don't even NEED it or any other ability to feel the lack of a soul. It is simply something you can feel when you touch them.

With "out and out magic" we have quite a few things. From the Voice's ability to cause even dead plant matter to grow to the singer's will while seemingly pulling matter out of thin air to do so, to... Everything about the Finn.

Fate?... Well they had more then a few precogs for one, and as kick-you-in-the-ass as the Wheel can be... Even Third Agers have more then enough on that end.

No knowledge of the Creator?

I think you are forgetting something. They were studying the World of Dreams, the place between dimensions, and vacuoles, bubbles on the outside of the Pattern, and they drilled into the Dark One's prison... Which is outside of the Pattern.

Which means that they were studying the very nature of the Pattern, and knew how to find it's edge. Thus they would know that the OP comes outside of it.

Hell, they would also know something of what happens to souls between lives at that.

... Being able to manifest the Light also kind of helps.

Besides... There's this cosmic logic computer that runs all of existence along predetermined routes, adgusting them as needed, and can be made to glitch out... "Oh well, I guess it just kind of 'happened' in the Big Bang that we just proved never happened because time is endless"... I mean, having rather easily proven the existence of Fate, ether they then think there is a "God", or they dub the Wheel God.

But as far as seeing the One Power as an energy source... Well yeah. That's what I was saying about how people in WoT seem to see such things. Very matter of fact. Very... Businesslike. There is something of the "we well survive, the Light willing, and if the Light doesn't will... Well, we will still survive" in it, but even more...

Well, look at the Forsaken, or hell, ANY of the Darkfriends.

There is like... ONE "true believer" in the whole bunch, everyone else is one out of ether fear, desperation, or more commonly out and out "I want something, and you can give it to me in exchange for things" about it. Yet almost no one in WoT so much as doubts the existence or POWER of the Dark One. Hell, those that do need only say one word to disprove those doubts.




I think the 3rd Age folks aren't that different. They clearly believe in the Creator and Dark One and know the Aes Sedai and Forsaken are more than simply human, but most seem to go about their daily lives with little interest in any of it. I suppose having undeniable proof of the existence of the Creator and Dark One makes it pretty impossible to set up alternative religions. But even still we see almost nothing in terms of an actual religion behind even the KNOWN. Perhaps dark friends and Black Ajah have rituals we don't see, but I don't recall ever seeing any form of a religious ceremony. WOT folk in the 3rd age seem much more likely to celebrate nature and the cycle of life than they are the Creator, at least based on the various festivals and holidays they discuss.

It really depends at what point you start calling a complicated set of beliefs and the complete and total faith in them a "religion".

To people in WoT is more akin to "water is wet" then a "religion". The Weirdness is... The fact that the view it as such.

Hell, Look at the Lord Dragon... Next to no one in universe actually seems to get WHAT the Dragon is, or what what they are thus would mean... And they never seem to bother asking the question ether.

A soul that has literally been fighting "Last Battles" for infinity, that mere existence proves the 100% success rate of, and... This never even crosses their minds.


Basically I think WOT folk "worshiped" the natural world more than the being known as the Creator (aside from the occasional prayer), they have a more druidic sort of mind set IMO. No churches or temples to the Creator were built, no clergy (unless you very broadly consider Aes Sedai as such), mostly the common folk feared the OP, even in societies like the Aiel and Sea Folk where Channelers held important roles.

Channelers hold "important roles" because their link to the OP. Gives them power. The OP comes from the the Light/Creator, they are "cleics", hell even "keepers of knowledge" but... Again, WoT has a very "practical" view of such things. They hold that power not out of some spiritual enlightenment, but of the practical uses, and dangers, of their power.


And they most defiantly don't worship the natural world. The Pattern somewhat, and the Wheel, but both of those things ultimately lead to "what put that in place?"... Otherwise known as "what created that?". "The Light" is about the only thing they even come close to actually "worshiping", but even it... Not quite. They "pray" to it, and believe, know even, it has the power to do anything about those prayers, but... They don't expect anything. There is no... "System" to it. There is no "do X to get Y". The Light will do what the Light will do. No more nor less, and it will likely do nothing besides.

To the average Joe the Light doesn't so much "act" as "acted" by way of making and directing the Wheel to weave whatever it is to weave. The Light "itself" seems more directly involved with the soul and the afterlife then the living world. "Salvation and rebirth" and all that.

But "the natural world"? WoT practically has the Force going on, with even rocks and places having "feelings", and yet... This is not common knowledge. It very easily could be, and yet... Isn't. Meaning that it's not seen as important enough information.


Mostly what I'm getting at here is that to the non-channeling population the whole Light/Dark/Soul etc is basically unimportant. Villagers and even large city dwellers who have nothing to do with the OP hold celebrations and festivals around the natural world, i.e. Equinoxes and traditional weather patterns (trade winds ect) coming and going and rather than assign religious-type connotation to these holidays, they respect that it is the world and the Pattern they "give thanks" or "show respect" for. Until these people are introduced to the OP in a more direct way they hardly believe in it because for most it is such a rare thing. Outside of societies that include channelers there is little or no reference to souls, rebirth or salvation outside of very specific circumstances like oath taking, because these societies have no way of using the OP to "magically" enforce an oath.

When you get into the societies where the OP is used in a more obvious function you start seeing a more systemic belief system, which seems to come in the form of various honor-code systems such as the Borderlanders seem to have or Ji-e-Toh or even the Seanchan "lowering of eyes". Yet even in these societies there is very little conversation around religious ceremony, they are all more rooted in personal accountability for the most part, or to some degree fate/pre-destination.

It's really only Channelers and those closely associated with them who overtly seem to realize that the Creator and the Dark One have an agenda and are "true believers". Aes Sedai appear to be to the only real group who have some level of a religious type nature, Wind Finders and Wise Ones are much more like community leaders who focus on practical real-world needs and functions.

Even the Children of the Light don't seem to have much in the way of a belief system so much as they have a worldly based purpose to root out Dark Friends. The Whitecloaks don't even appear to have a direct worship of the Creator so much as they are invested in stopping the human evil around them. They don't really even seem to care about reforming suspected Dark Friends as they do about killing them off and gaining worldly power. Take Pedron Nial as an example, his biggest concern was accumulating more power for the Whitecloaks and himself, never once does he think about his immortal soul. I suspect part of this has to do with what appears to be a fact that you must willingly go to the shadow (at least non-channelers) thus your soul is inherently safe with the Creator unless you pledge it to the Dark One of your own accord. Thus the average WOT person has no worries about being cast into some version of hell unless they choose to make a literal deal with the devil.

I suppose it can be argued that we simply don't see the more religious aspects in the world because they don't really need to be present to drive the story, but I do tend to believe that RJ made the unknown/mystical parts of his world a far more scientific pursuit to the characters we interact with. Everything appears to have rules and boundaries that can be explained, even when there is probably more to it. My sense from the what we heard from even the AOL is that these people had codified the OP with a scientific method and tended to ignore the more metaphysical aspects, someone like Ishamael was likely highly thought of precisely because he seemed to buck the system and write philosophical books about the nature of reality. Lews Therin even thinks to himself that this was Ishamael's undoing. Another small tidbit we get in support of this mentality is that the Horn of Valere was considered some kind of curiosity in the AOL because it came from an earlier Age and the more practically focused AOL society looked at it as outside of the rules they had established. The Portal Stones were explored prior to the AOL and there is a clear numerology-based mythology around them, but the AOL Aes Sedai seemed to not care much about how or why around them, they simply studied them and used the findings for further scientific value.

The first few books we saw much more "magic", but once the main cast starts truly using the OP it becomes more of a sci-fi type system IMO and as we get peeks into the AOL we start seeing constructs and tech-esque devices rather than individual humans casting spells or even praying for power. I've seen a few theories on here that equate channelers to clerics, and I don't 100% disagree with the thought process, but there is nothing in the system to show that faith in the Creator gives greater power or ability. The True Power is much more along these lines since it is 100% based on what the Dark One chooses to give an individual.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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How did you feel after completing AMoL? - - 24/02/2017 04:03:10 AM 1723 Views
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I'll post this again - 25/02/2017 01:29:16 AM 876 Views
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You can say whatever you want, but you're wrong - 25/02/2017 10:40:58 PM 949 Views
We are not discussing concrete facts, so objective error is impossible - 26/02/2017 01:21:46 AM 1065 Views
In any discussion, error is possible. In your discussions, it's a near certainty. - 28/02/2017 08:24:59 PM 906 Views
On a different topic, how important do you think that stuff is? - 03/03/2017 07:20:15 AM 1020 Views
It's all about suspending disbelief, isn't it? - 04/03/2017 01:13:12 AM 991 Views
That makes a lot of sense. - 08/03/2017 10:18:56 PM 984 Views
On further reflection, I think the religion element being left out is important. - 04/03/2017 04:07:53 AM 919 Views
Middle-Earth? - 08/03/2017 09:53:45 PM 1118 Views
A Elbereth Gilthoniel... - 10/03/2017 04:48:50 PM 937 Views
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But did they really undeniably prove this existence? - 09/03/2017 04:19:43 PM 1137 Views
Re: But did they really undeniably prove this existence? - 10/03/2017 07:47:11 AM 1097 Views
I think we are saying similar things - 12/03/2017 08:31:13 PM 1042 Views
Some points - 25/02/2017 11:54:50 PM 993 Views
Well, some THINGS anyway. - 26/02/2017 01:56:29 AM 959 Views
Your recognition of irony is profound - 26/02/2017 08:39:47 AM 912 Views
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Re: It felt like the end of Grease when the car flew off - 01/03/2017 11:23:18 PM 1025 Views
Re: It felt like the end of Grease when the car flew off - 02/03/2017 06:07:12 AM 898 Views
I still haven't read it. - 01/03/2017 08:03:53 PM 879 Views
Interesting, any reason why you haven't read it yet? *NM* - 01/03/2017 10:26:21 PM 517 Views
It was the end of their world as I knew it, and I felt fine. *NM* - 02/03/2017 11:13:25 PM 564 Views
You were just happy that you-know-who died! *NM* - 03/03/2017 02:47:38 AM 555 Views
Disappointed, shocked, relieved. - 03/03/2017 04:44:56 PM 842 Views
Curious - what were you hoping to happen to Rand at the end? *NM* - 03/03/2017 09:00:12 PM 576 Views
Me too! - 04/03/2017 10:19:21 AM 795 Views
I cried and I was glad it was over! - 04/03/2017 09:13:03 PM 948 Views
there's just SO MUCH that could happen - 05/03/2017 09:33:26 AM 943 Views

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