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Re: You could say the same about all of the characters though Dunstan Send a noteboard - 17/01/2017 07:20:26 PM

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Gawyn made his own choices with his eyes wide open to the consequences of his actions with the rings. He functionally committed suicide regardless of the outcome of the duel with Demandred.


I completely agree, but the circumstances which contributed to his decision had a lot to do with his recent close association with her. Gawyn is proud and stupid, but without his warder bond and the Bloodknife doohickeys he might have had the sense to appreciate the vast difference in their abilities, and merely shook his fist impotently from the Andoran section of the battlefield. He'd have been commanding troops under adult supervision, with the usual WoT issues of commanders not being allowed to risk themselves.

I would go so far as to call Egwene's inadvertent contribution to the circumstances of Gawyn's death a net gain for the good guys, because his situation at Tarmon Gaidon removed him from the chain of command and expedited Mat taking over for the corrupted Great Captains. Elayne might not have been so willing to go to him, if she had her favorite brother & First Prince of the Sword to take over for Bashere.


Galad I can be more forgiving of, but he's still a moron for going after one of the Forsaken with a sword. It's like "bringing a knife to a gun fight". Lan at least prepared himself to counter a Channeler.
And Lan got that preparation, because it was taken off of Galad's body. Galad was prepared as well. Demandred simply beat him.
As for the "mind rape" ... I don't see it like that. Egwene clearly didn't feel abused or taken advantage of and Gawyn was not aware that her mind was actually in the dream with him. Rape is a crime of control and violence, not sexual release, so this scene felt more like a man having wet dream and Egwene essentially stumbling into it.
And IMO, the Wise Ones' explanation of the phenomenon implies at least that Egwene subconsciously gave tacit consent. There is absolutely no question that Gawyn had no agency in what happened to her, and without the will to act, there cannot be wrongdoing. Also her body and person were not touched, so there is no proof that it actually happened, and was not a creation of her own dreaming mind.

Arguably, if anyone committed rape in that event, it would be Egwene. Desire is not consent (on Gawyn's part), and Egwene is the only one who had a choice of about being there. If she had not been engaging in expressly forbidden activity, she would not have been in a position to violate Gawyn's sexual privacy. If Tylin raped Mat, Egwene raped Gawyn.


In terms of Gawyn's path being somewhat steered by his association with Egwene. Certainly his actions were effected by interactions with many characters, Siuan and Elayne and Elaida drove him down this path more than even Egwene IMO. Ultimately if Elayne hadn't chosen to go to Falme and Siuan hadn't been dismissive of him during her various scheming he would not have been in the situation to make a lot of poor choices. Egwene' role in his final decision should have had the opposite effect in him IMO ... how can you put the person you supposedly love in the situation he ended up placing Egwene in? He knew the consequences his death would have on Egwene yet he knowingly put the rings on and marched off to his own death. Ultimately, he drove Egwene to her death as well, her final actions were dramatically effected by his death.

I'd forgotten Lan had gotten the ter'angreal off Galad.

There simply was no rape. Gawyn, to your point, had no agency. Egwene was a consenting adult. The only awkwardness here is that Egwene was actually trapped and essentially had no way of avoiding what happened in his dream. But she clearly didn't have regret for the actions she engaged in and never felt "taken advantage of"


... "mindrape" and "rape" are two different things.

It means more pulling a Professor X and rewriting a person's mind, not raping them IN their mind.

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Hah and all the kids will be thinking that Aunt Berelain is soooo cool - 13/10/2016 04:01:03 PM 798 Views
LOL ... well, maybe she gets to poke at Berelaine - 13/10/2016 09:35:25 PM 715 Views
Does Niella count as "sister-in-law"? Elayne would be technically married to Aviendha after all... - 14/10/2016 06:33:54 AM 858 Views
But would he have gone as far as he did making those choices if he wasn't a warder? Her warder esp.? - 15/10/2016 01:12:07 AM 866 Views
I believe he would have regardless. His decisions have always been emotional/pride based - 17/10/2016 03:48:18 AM 633 Views
Egwene has MANY faults... But she is hardly to blame for Gawyn being screwed up. - 18/10/2016 06:12:00 AM 743 Views
I wouldn't say Egwene was at fault in any way - 18/10/2016 04:15:34 PM 659 Views
Re: I wouldn't say Egwene was at fault in any way - 18/10/2016 04:51:03 PM 670 Views
That seems out of character for RJ to me - 15/01/2017 11:18:13 PM 942 Views
It might surprise you to learn that I agree - 10/01/2017 11:20:45 AM 713 Views
You could say the same about all of the characters though - 15/01/2017 11:07:18 PM 842 Views
Re: You could say the same about all of the characters though - 17/01/2017 07:20:26 PM 690 Views
Well, that term is even less relevant to what happened. - 18/01/2017 11:31:20 AM 663 Views
mmmmm Berelain - 19/01/2017 07:19:01 AM 720 Views

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