Active Users:839 Time:19/12/2024 08:37:06 AM
It's not selective to point out legitimate differences in circumstances. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 02/01/2016 12:25:07 PM


Why is this specific to this situation, from you? Where was your outrage at Rand flinging fire and destruction at the Shaido in tFoH, instead of just trapping them in Air? We know that at that point, he could trap multiple people in a single web of Air, and also make walls of Air. Yet there he was, burning off entire hilltops. The Shaido surely deserve as much consideration as Sul'dam, right?
Two of them, versus an army, that is not at all disarmed. There is no comparison. The sul'dam Egwene was facing were not going to kill anyone. Rand was fighting generally, against soldiers who would otherwise kill his own people. They were on a pitched battlefield, and what is more, they were already in violation of their OWN rules of war. And Rand just aimed generally destructive weaves, he did not specifically set two individuals, whom he had personally disarmed, on fire.
In a combat situation, tying them up with Air, then having them transported somewhere safe would add to the danger to herself and her followers, since she needs everyone focussed on repelling the Seanchan. Unlike the Damane, the Sul'dam are NOT going to be passive and too scared to take initiative as a rule.
But they ARE going to be helpless. That's fine, Egwene doesn't need to coddle them, she just needs to NOT set them on fire. Tie them up and leave them there. Non-channelers are not going to break bonds of Air like someone might break material bindings. For that matter, why not just weave a Keeping on them or something? If she can spare enough of the Power to burn them alive, binding them is not a significant diversion of resources.
Depends on the Damane, and Egwene seems aware of the risk:
I’ll have one of the novices show you how to unlock the bracelets; but don’t take any risks. Generally, it’s easier—and much safer—to kill the damane.

You see, she admits she took a greater risk for whatever reason in this case. If she can take the risk to spare the occasional damane, she can take the much lesser risk of not murdering unarmed non-channelers, especially when she is supposed to be setting an example to novices.


I still find it inexplicable that she didn't shield them. She had way more OP than them, and could have had them shielded in seconds. Just bad writing that she doesn't do so.
This is the really annoying thing about Sanderson. So much of his writing derails conversations about the series, because we can't be sure if something happened, but was not mentioned properly, or was his own initiative in mentioning it, but was out of character and a fan-fic moment he thought would be cool, or something else stupid.

The same was true, to a much much greater extent, for Rand from a distance in Cairhein. He was too far for any Shaido bow to reach, and he was positioned to make them helpless and no threat to anyone. Yet he chose to kill them.
He was not so positioned, and they were in position to be a threat to other people. There is no proof that he could do his Air trick at any great distance, nor were they under his direct control, being so far away. Note that when he IS up close and personal, and no follower's lives were at stake (except for Aviendha, but it was her fault they were in that situation in the first place) he DOES immobilize the Seanchan, and does not kill anyone he does not need to.

And your repudiation of these rules for Egwene alone, as if she is the sole channeler we have ever met, is indicative of your continuing bias.
Rand NEVER murders anyone in close quarters like Egwene does. A pitched battlefield is completely different from a one-on-one encounter.

I find it not at all surprising that only for Egwene, it is "cruel murder".
Name someone else who did the same thing. Seriously. They don't. This is why I "single out" Egwene, because she is repeatedly the only one who finds herself in such situations. Aside from maybe a background Asha'man, she is the only person to directly express a desire to use the Power as a weapon. Nynaeve has some nebulous plans to use the Power against Moiraine in the future to avenge her ruining the lives of the Two Rivers folk, but it is only Egwene who ever WANTS to lash out with the Power, it is only Egwene who seeks opportunities to use the Power even when she is insanely outmatched, who must always be forced to exercise discretion. And Egwene is the only one to ever, in a personal combat situation, murder helpless people like that. I didn't call her out for her bloodlust during Tarmon Gaidon, and I have defended her killing the to'raken in the same fight in Tar Valon, because the same circumstances apply to her as with Rand at Cairhien.

I can't recall the time the Aes Sedai raided the Whitecloak stronghold, or threatened them in any way physically. If they had, I would have zero issues with Whitecloaks shooting them from hiding.
Yeah, no Aes Sedai would do a thing like that, only Egwene ever attacks the Children with the Power.

BTW, remember, the Seanchan were counter-attacking. They might have had the wrong idea about the White Tower's role or willingness to protect the portion of the world over which they claimed influence, but as we see in WoT, moving out of a mistaken understanding of a situation is simply human nature.


And if Egwene Traveled to some random place and killed some random sul'dam the way she did the two who were part of an attack, I would condemn her for it.
But being part of such an attack does not forever strip you of the right to basic human decency.

Aes Sedai are not regular channelers, though. They explicitly cannot go on the offensive against anyone like a Whitecloak. Thus, the Whitecloak has an option with them... namely of not attacking.
So far as they know. The Children have no way of verifying the truth of the Oaths, and we see frequently how much of a sham those are when an Aes Sedai wants to get around them.
That Perrin scene was moronic, though it involved ropes, if I recall. Branon's justification that she meant to transport him somewhere safe works, I guess, but that should really have been part of the scene if so. Either way, doing so takes Egwene away from the fight, which is something she would certainly not mind risking for her friend, but why she would do that for someone who is actually attacking her is beyond me.
I never said she had to do that for the sul'dam. There is a whole gulf of options between coddling and burning alive.

So much time? Pre-Sanderson, she told them once that she meant them to take it despite the new info on them reducing lifespan, as far as I recall. And I don't ever remember her saying that was because of some deep belief in non-violence. Siuan convinced Egwene that the Oaths were politically important for Aes Sedai. And even then, Egwene specifically worried about the Seanchan as a hole in Siuan's argument.
They commented on it in just about every book, that Egwene kept harping on the necessity for living according to the Oaths, even before that conversation. That was one of those off-screen conversations that somehow happen, but we never get to see, like Egwene's apparent conveyance of Elayne's feelings to Rand. We see that happen in one conversation, but Rand mentions a constant stream of well-wishings, and Egwene uses further updates as an incentive for him to want her back in T'A'R. That conversation where Egwene lays down the law for good starts off in a way that plainly indicates this is not their first go-round on the topic, since they are basically asking her if she has changed her mind yet. And as the specific and primary beneficiary of that political importance, it is even further incumbent upon her to stick to them. Siuan's point was that political unity imparted by the Oaths, which benefits Egwene more than anyone else, since unity means more followers under her rule.

Which is why I don't recall her telling them they need to be honest, or that they need to be less violent. That would be hypocritical of her.
True.
She wants them to take the Oaths to become Aes Sedai, because she has come to agree that the political benefits Siuan listed were too great to let the Oaths go completely. They hold as a common thread among the various Ajahs, and makes them a cohesive unit.

See, this is one place where I err on the side of giving Egwene the benefit of the doubt, to a certain degree. As far as I am concerned, the political motivation is so petty and contemptible and dishonest, that I find it less disgust-inducing to give her credit for the implied moral impulses behind which the Oaths disguise themselves. There are a few times when she seems to appreciate the First Oath out of respect for a version of honesty. I'd rather give her credit for some limited and flawed impulses toward honesty and non-violence, than accuse her of paying lip service to a morally bankrupt code of conduct solely to gain the dishonest advantages of the false reputation it imparts. In spite of all logic and rationality, much less knowing the outcome of her arc, I still kind of cling to the image of her as the Tower's best hope for reform and rehabilitation, which of course, just sets me up to be disappointed when she throws each opportunity away.
And it makes a direct statement from an Aes Sedai impossible to ignore, which is a HUGE advantage. And the political powers of the land, and even commoners, can know that they are safe from physical assault using the OP, yet another huge advantage.
They are no such thing. That has massive loopholes for anyone with half a brain, and they can sic their Warders on people in any case. The point of the Oaths is to give the Aes Sedai an out and to prevent them from committing themselves to any cause, while gaining the benefits of alliances and dodging any reciprocal obligations they find inconvenient. That they are an effective tool in binding the Tower together says nothing good about the sisters, or their susceptibility to brainwashing.
These are the things that convince Egwene. Siuan's argument is not that "being honest" and "being non-violent at (almost) all costs" are good things!
The only major character to ever, at any point, advocate such a position, was Egwene's defense of Aram when Perrin pointed out the obvious flaws in the Way of the Leaf. I also never advocated non-violence, but again, there is a big gap between that and burning helpless people alive.
And never is that something Egwene preaches to Elayne or Nynaeve. In fact, she specifically says:
“I expect any woman whose name is in the novice book to go as far as she can, to earn the shawl if she can, and serve as Aes Sedai, but I don’t want anyone to die for it when they could live.”


That she thinks she has the right to such expectations is, in the abstract, more horrifying than her frequent impulse to settle a situation in the bloodiest way possible, or desire to get involved in fights that don't concern her, or where any other character would be criticized for overreaching his capabilities.



And she also plans for Aes Sedai to retire by giving up the Oaths. Does that mean she thinks Kinswomen are inherently liars and violent? No. Does that mean she thinks they can do those things with impunity? No. But they will no longer have the benefit of implicit trust that their direct statements are true and that they physically cannot start violence against someone who doesn't threaten them. And they have to live with that, for half their lives at least, and Egwene is just fine with that because she came up with the plan herself.
It's not a plan, it's a bizarre and unworkable notion to paper over a serious objection to her intention to retain a political advantage at the expense of her own expressed desire to institute a necessary reform. Aside from the annoying lifespan issues, these women are still supposed to take Oaths to act according to a dishonest set of rules. An oath, and the responsibility to keep it, is not cancelled out by the opportunity to do otherwise. Just as appalling as Siuan getting away with her lie about the Reds and the False Dragons, is that she swore an oath not to lie and lied at the very first opportunity she had! It's like swearing a vow of chastity and then having sex with the very first person you encounter. And she told her first lie and most subsequent ones, with the full knowledge that the people to whom she lied believed she was under oath.

Anyway, Egwene is either going to be putting these future Kinswomen in an impossible position, as well as retaining that artificial distinction between Aes Sedai (and now all channelers) and normal people, or else she's going to be making a mockery of the whole point of the Oaths, by having an association of the Tower running around unbound.


All Egwene cares about is that women who want to be called Aes Sedai swear the Oaths. And that women have already been named Aes Sedai try live by them. I think it is beyond absurd to claim the Oaths would have held Egwene back from attacking the Sul'dam when we have seen, in similar situations, bound Aes Sedai do as much or more.
Hence the problem with the Oaths. Permitted by the Oaths (or the Aes Sedai's mental shortcomings) does not make something right. Note that shortly before the fight there is a similar issue, where she wishes for the Oath Rod because of the necessity of explaining Verin's presence in her bed without letting news of her death get out. She tells an untruth, that is terminologically precise, is still intended to mislead, while wishing for the Oath Rod, since lying is too convenient and tempting in such times. Egwene plainly aspires to more than the politically convenient lip-service to an otherwise meaningless set of Oaths, while at the same time, missing the point of the moral rule, and substituting the standard of the Oaths. Just because the words she uses to Turese are technically true does not mean she is not deliberately using them with intent to deceive. That is a lie, just as surely using false words. That's why the oath of a witness forbids lies of omission ( "tell...the whole truth..." ) and mixing true statements with false to conceal the latter ( "...nothing but the truth" ). Lying is not always wrong, except when attempting to mislead others about the truth of another, but the Oaths change the moral axis to allow lies, so long as they can be told by use of facts. And Egwene indicates she is accepting the Oath's version of honesty in place of the morality she once tacitly accepted. The so-called lie for wish she abuses Nynaeve in T'A'R as punishment, would have been completely acceptable according to the First Oath. Nynaeve's words were more or less "imagine trying to give forkroot to someone who knows herbs like I do." She never denies drinking the tea or anything that happened, nor does she assert the occurrence of something that did not happen. Yet, when she confesses, Egwene still acts as if it is a lie and frames it as a personal betrayal. So something has plainly changed by the time she has come back to the Tower.

We see too many abuses of the Third Oath, covered over by the ignorance or timidity of the sisters in question to assert that burning the sul'dam alive would have been impossible had Egwene been sworn on the Oath Rod. That does not remotely make it right, any more than Coiren acknowledging that they owe Sevanna for services rendered, while deliberately evading a commitment to render restitution for that service, or that Kiruna was right in getting soldiers killed by deviating from the battle plan for the political convenience of the rebel embassy. Since her sisters and Alanna's warder were under attack by the enemy in question, she had all the clearance she could wish to blast the Shaido at will. No one doubts that political motivation, and she does not attempt to deny it, but that she can believe the excuse she offers for the 'necessity' of her actions, shows how the Oaths don't prevent sisters from being stupid or ignoring realities.


And since Egwene hasn't espoused non-violence as a way of life to anyone... what exactly is the hypocrisy here?
Just that at some point, it seemed like she aspired to the spirit of the moral underpinnings to which the Oaths pretended.

That Egwene has used the OP for violence in combat? I don't think anyone is arguing that.
I would go more in the direction of "shows a propensity or inclination toward violence with the OP, particularly for self-gratifying reasons. Her impulsive attacks in Falme and outside Tar Valon, her repeated defiance on the topic of using the Power as a weapon during the journey to Tear, in defiance of the point Nynaeve made both verbally and by example, of non-lethal alternatives, combined with her emotional overreactions to the Seanchan, all point to an unnecessarily lethal option as in keeping with previously demonstrated character traits.

I am not even unsympathetic to the reasons for her animus toward the Seanchan. But that is not something she has the luxury of retaining if she aspires to leadership.


But you are implying she did murder, a whole other thing. And that is just flat out wrong.
She did. And I see you've grasped the "whole thing" idiom.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Cannoli on 02/01/2016 at 12:27:21 PM
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It's not selective to point out legitimate differences in circumstances. - 02/01/2016 12:25:07 PM 1272 Views
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