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How I see Traveling... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 24/12/2015 11:35:30 PM

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Well those are direct quotes too.

From people who are less in the know. Rand says, while he has an angreal in his pocket and a real need to make a Gateway as large as he can to quickly transport as many Aiel as he can, that he can't make a Gateway larger than 4x4 no matter what. This is also a time when he doesn't have all his eventual strength, yet even much later he doesn't make Gateways any larger.
How about a new tactic where you don't call people moronic for recognizing verifiable quotes in the series?

I called it moronic long ago, and continue to do so. There was plenty of evidence that Gateway size doesn't strictly track with strength, including Aviendha's quote from tPoD. I don't remember whether it was you or Shannow, but someone once actually had a theory that we can take Gateway areas of various characters, and from that map their strength. I think Rand's 4x4 gateway was compared to Beonin's 2x2, and it was concluded that this meant Beonin was 1/4th Rand's strength. What is that BUT moronic? It was to those theories I was referring to.
Logain has been at the BT - he knows that gateways size is linked to strength, which it is. This was a theory that was put into place for most of the series, and confirmed by Logain. It's also not like Logain was beaten to death by everyone around him when he made this 'moronic' statement. It's clearly true.

No one contradicted him because there was a more immediate issue at play: Rand was at the brink of overdrawing Saidin. The only man with enough knowledge to say different was focussed on not dying...
We have seen that Rand is the strongest channeler in the series and he can also make the biggest gateways at 4x4.

Not sure how much credence we can place on Brandon's work, so huge grain of salt and all that, but as of aMoL, this isn't true. Androl makes much larger ones on his own.
Then there are channelers who are slightly weaker than him like Sammael and Osan'gar who have smaller gateways.

Problem is, we don't know they were making the largest they could. Rand doesn't always make a 4x4 gateway, only when he needs the largest he can make.
Not only this but Rand himself has used gateways size to see how his Ash'aman are growing in strength.

But not to compare strength. That's the point. To an extent, you can add more OP and make a Gateway larger. But you hit an upper limit, eventually. The question is: is that upper limit set by your potential? Several quotes directly state otherwise.
Considering Asmodean thinks that two women together equal a man, I think we can take much of what he says with a pinch of salt.

Sure, except we see Rand verify that. And from Aviendha we know that where Elayne can make her largest Gateway using less than the total amount of OP she can draw, Aviendha cannot because of her block.

Both these verifiable events strongly reinforce Asmodean's claim.


That said, it seem like gateway size is linked to your strength in the Power, but not the amount of saidin/saidar you put into it.

No, I think that is wrong. Here's how I see it:

1) The size your Gateway will take is defined by the strength of your Talent.
2) For average Talent, a minimum of level 19 strength is needed to be able to make a functioning Gateway large enough for a person to walk through. Even if you're stronger in the OP, you can't use less strength and make a huge Gateway, since your Talent is the same.
3) Since your level of Talent remains the same, if you're growing in strength, up to a point you might increase Gateway size.

I say the last because whatever level of Talent Rand had, his Gateway sizes didn't change between Book 5 and Book 11, though we have some hints to his strength increasing. For Aviendha, the second learned weave limitation seems to have held her back even as her strength grew.

I'm fairly certain this is the way of it. For whatever its worth, this also matches what Brandon did with Androl.


Your mind probably grows in strength as you grow with the Power, and this allows you to handle it without burning yourself out - and so it's probably this factor that determines gateway size. It's likely that Rand puts in as much strength to make a gateway as an Aes Sedai does to make hers, but his strength in the Power passively allows the size. I'm pretty sure that the ++1's can all equal this and that the ++2's are a little smaller etc.

Doesn't make much sense. What allows someone to regulate Gateway size, then? We've seen Nynaeve, for instance, make two Gateways of different sizes in immediate succession. If size was passively determined by her potential, what did she do? Trick the Gateway-size gods into thinking her potential was lower?
Then there are also factors like strength in Spirit and even Fire in men, as well as the Travelling Talent that Androl has. Androl is rare enough that he draws looks from people because he is so weak in the Power and yet he can Travel, meaning that in general he defies a trend that everyone uses.

He definitely defies the trend in that his level of Talent is incredibly high. But I dislike theories that aren't parsimonious. The simplest solution is that Androl's Talent is so high he doesn't need much of the OP to make a Gateway. Rather than seeing this as something out of the blue, its best to treat him as part of the trend, just an extreme outlier.

If you think two people of the exact same OP strength can make equal sized Gateways, I'd ask you to prove it. We have Aviendha and Androl to prove otherwise, and nothing at all to prove it is true.


So say what you want, but the high strength channelers can make big gateways, the average ones smaller gateways, and the weak ones no gateways.

I'm not saying what I want. I'm saying what is in the books, which is that Gateway size isn't strictly dependent on the amount of OP you put into it.

It seems like splitting flows doesn't split strength, which is really strange if you think about it. One should be careful though - Egwene is never a good example of anything. She's one of those extremely rare channelers who is strong in all the five flows and also has multiple gifts and Talents.

Egwene (and Rand) aren't our only examples though.

Well indeed, and it seems like Rand could probably hold 14 weak Aes Sedai, but maybe not seven stronger ones.

I don't know where you get the 14 weaker ones comment. Because he can make 14 flows? I suspect it won't work that easily. I think Rand will certainly be able to make 14 shields that are strong enough to cut off 14 Daigians. With his angreal, we see that he can make 7 that are strong enough (in his mind, this is always subject to his lack of knowledge of Aes Sedai strength though) to shield 7 fairly strong women. But LTT is still doubtful. I think that is because shielding is a very tricky thing. You can have a shield strong enough, but it can bounce back in some cases. You need focus, and precision, to land a shield. When facing one, or two, maybe even 3, it is possible to do it so that there's a high probability all the shields land. But it seems that even at 7, LTT thinks the risk is high that some of those shields won't land, leaving open the possibility of a counterattack, and the ensuing chaos.

This, at least, has always been my interpretation of that scene.



I would agree with this because kids who are taught to be skilled often retain that skill into childhood, but adults often struggle to pick up new skills. I know people who have taught their kids three languages as infants and this would be very difficult for someone of our age. It's almost like you have to fix this into your developing channeling brain while you have the chance.

Yup. Some skills and abilities have what are called "Critical periods". The literature on this is quite extensive.

Rand was also completely untrained, and not only that but his weaves were highly skilled. He melted metal and knitted it into chain mail, and did all sorts of other things. It was a clear demonstration of multiple strengths and gifts that he wasn't aware of. He didn't even know how to shield a woman at that stage and yet he did.

This is clearly LTT's knowledge leaking through, though. A few days later he destroys every Trolloc in the Stone with one weave. And we see that Asmodean is never able to teach him how to shield. But he gets it later anyway.

Flow splitting is likely a combination of several abilities and strengths, though the precise formula is unclear. Why can Aviendha not equal Elayne? I think perhaps one could practice but I have strong doubts that everyone could be as adept as Egwene or Rand.

I think it is simply a matter of practice, as the Companion says. We KNOW Egwene to be the type who pushes her abilities to the max. Already by tSR, she could do 4 things at once. What's more, the time she was doing this practice coincides with the time she and the Wise Ones were training Aviendha in the Waste. It seems clear to me this is why Aviendha does better than Elayne. Nynaeve was always using a lot of flows with Healing. Elayne is the last one out, and it seems she simply had less practice at her earliest training times.

With what you and Darius have half proved is that perhaps her full strength is present in all her flows. Flow splitting seems to not split strength.

Yup.

This is likely similar to Rand's statement than an Air bridge has limits. I doubt using a sa'angreal would improve on this.

Possibly not, but that wasn't my point.

As long as you aren't too much weaker than them.

Yup. And if the person you're shielding is of the opposite gender, then you need to be stronger, though we don't know by how much.

Yes you probably have to establish this early on as a channeler. Once you believe that it's difficult the neural pathways set in and it really does become difficult.

Yes. We see that in New Spring, Moiraine believes it is extraordinary she could do 4 things at once in her AS test. She thought 3 was her limit.

This is likely true, but considering the risky nature of shielding, I think channelers try to increase the odds of success. Rand says that shielding a woman doesn't take 'mere trifles' of the Power, so clearly you have to make a weave of reasonable strength. I'm also a strong believe in precision weaving and that if you get a shield to have nice sharp edges you can not only shield someone, but sever them at the same time, as we saw with Moghedien/Nynaeve.

Definitely, but I don't think just increasing the power of the shield is enough. If you read the scene where Nynaeve and Talaan are dueling, your focus matters. So your focus on the shield, and your focus on holding on to the source. Get distracted even a little, and you can be shielded/accidentally shield instead of stilling/fail to land your shield.

We've seen all those things happen to Nynaeve at various times.

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