Active Users:1161 Time:23/11/2024 12:35:18 AM
Some points Sidious Send a noteboard - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM

I think in many ways Darius is right about this. I'd like to raise a few points.

Firstly, channelers can use the power that drives the universe and most of them know it, even if only on a subconscious level. What's worse is that they are living in a feudal and not very advanced society, and human nature naturally gravitates towards "boldness", arrogance and similar traits especially when one is handed great power (and longevity). Some of the stronger channelers have been said to be able to tear down half a palace if they want to. There are very few truly humble channelers in the books, and we've seen channelers fall back on the True Source if they don't get what they want. Channeling is a lot like physical strength - powerful, athletic and good looking people are often arrogant and "bold". It's a theme as old as civilization. Anaiya's statement isn't absurd if you consider that the Power is what has established the hierarchy of the WT. Right or wrong, there is no evidence that this has changed. They mentioned it when they chose Egwene as the rebel Amyrlin, and it has been the reason that they have hounded Cadsuane to be the Amyrlin several times, even at the very end of the series. Cadsuane mentioned that she was very arrogant in her power when she gained the shawl, until she was humbled by a near toothless wilder. She is almost the only character whom I can think of who appreciates that even the greatest can be humbled. Most other characters think that they were unlucky and will 'have their revenge'.

One should also remember that half of the AOL Aes Sedai joined the Shadow during the War of Power. Channeling definitely gives people a sense of god-like power in most instances, even if it's not fully apparent at first. Rand's allusion to Moiraine as a 'little sister' is more than a hint that this sort of structuring may have been present then too.

The actual act of channeling even creates euphoria, and Nynaeve under Compulsion admitted that having access to so much power terrifies her. It's very likely that boldness in personality grows with strength in the Power, especially in the WT where people have to respect you if you're strong even if you're an imbecile (look at Elaida). I'm not saying that it's intrinsic, but rather that it is reinforced socially. Aes Sedai are told they are better than non Aes Sedai, strong channelers can boss weaker ones around etc. There are countless times when AS have told Nynaeve about how massive she is going to be one day and after a few years that has got to rub off.

Secondly, no one has introduced anything about relativism. Many of the Forsaken are akin to AOL royalty. Most of them were world famous whereas Mesaana was not. I don't think it's an easy crowd to be around unless you have very good self-esteem. Mesaana was not an achiever in her age, and she's not even beautiful (sometimes this is enough for even a modern woman to make her feel diminished). Same with Moghedien. Compare this to the others who are all very strong, beautiful and formally accomplished and it explains a lot. Rahvin may not be famous, but he's pretty much as handsome as a man can be and as strong in the Power as possible - I doubt he's had to face many serious social issues in his life that he couldn't get past. Of course, when Mesaana is around anyone who is not Forsaken (like Alviarin), she comes across as great as any queen, and there's no lack of 'boldness' there. Her massive arrogance around Egwene was not subtle at all. There are many other examples - Nynaeve is a very bold woman, but she becomes meek around Alivia. Daigian sits quietly among other Aes Sedai because of her weakness, yet that meekness vanishes when she's with her warder or is out and about like as an individual Aes Sedai.

As a last point, I also don't think Mesaana has a capacity for evil that many of the Forsaken have. She basically admits it when comparing herself to Semirhage. People like Graendal, Lanfear, Demandred, Aginor and Ishamael have almost inhuman capacities for evil. It's unlikely that all of the Forsaken have the same capacity for evil. Many merely wanted immortality, and Mesaana was more obsessed with her Nazi children's courts from a distance, than someone like Semirhage who was trying to keep people alive for years in agony, Lanfear driving people to suicide in dreams, or Demandred feeding whole cities to Trollocs. It's likely some of the Forsaken often thought "what the hell am I doing here?"

I'm not surprised that Darius thought that Mesaana should be less than 2. I have never seen Mesaana so high on any strength list over all the years that we have been fighting about it. It's likely that she's like Aginor - very strong but not very charismatic.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Reply to message
Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3239 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 957 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 941 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1079 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 984 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1072 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1083 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1273 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 931 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1070 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1112 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1042 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1124 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1081 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1229 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1188 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1200 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 995 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1233 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1065 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 928 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1201 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1060 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1151 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1215 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1004 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1136 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1005 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 942 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 954 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 966 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 992 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1044 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 945 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1174 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 973 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 924 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 954 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 596 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 990 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1024 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 934 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 965 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 944 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 648 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 966 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 937 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1134 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1001 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1032 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1062 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1061 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 993 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1011 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1074 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 914 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 933 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1132 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 973 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1060 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1107 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 915 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 964 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 914 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 904 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 945 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 963 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1133 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1084 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1128 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1318 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 987 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1162 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 862 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 922 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 862 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 871 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1143 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 993 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1320 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 877 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1098 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 944 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 845 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 870 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 941 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 902 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 901 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 609 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 963 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 821 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 975 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 530 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 564 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 969 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 921 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 898 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 902 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 865 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 816 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 867 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 904 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 830 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 860 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 943 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 855 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 967 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1046 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 906 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 939 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 877 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 971 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 878 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 919 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 910 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 878 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 890 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 861 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 890 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 808 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 926 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 570 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 891 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 856 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 945 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 887 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 922 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 888 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 818 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 867 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 857 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 904 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 836 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1018 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 947 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1015 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 881 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 859 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 879 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1026 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 910 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 909 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1028 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1074 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1081 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 843 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 999 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 916 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 857 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 998 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 943 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 816 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 968 Views

Reply to Message