Active Users:137 Time:07/04/2025 01:53:58 AM
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM

View original post
I'm not really "wishing" for anything here, I'm noting where I find discrepancy in how I read the text and what the Companion says regarding strength. RJ set the stage in many ways to show that stronger channelers were typically more bold, you can see that just by looking at the strength rankings and looking at how these individuals behaved.

RJ set no such stage. Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Rand... these people cover a substantial number of power levels, but show no actual difference in boldness. When Siuan lost her access to the OP completely, she was shown to be no less bold. Once she came back weaker, she was shown to be, if anything, even more bold.

RJ has his chief observer of the Aes Sedai, Egwene, voice contempt for the strength=any character trait system quite early. Moghedien is one of the first Forsaken we spend any amount of time with, and she's far stronger than the majority of the channelers we meet, but she is shown to be anything but bold. Asmodean is shown to be cowardly too, yet he too is way stronger than most we meet.

The strength-boldness correlation simply does not exist.


I found it odd from Mesaana's behavior that she was so strong in the power. She behaved as though she was less than the other Forsaken, even while talking about how she knew she "matched up in skill" she was admitting being afraid of Semirhage. I don't actually think Mesaana was particularly inept, she showed quite a bit of skill actually and created more chaos than any Forsaken save Graendal really. But the hiding, fearfulness and generally meek attitude went a long way toward assuming she wasn't as powerful in the OP.

We don't see her fearful at all. Even after being raped by Shaidar Haran, we don't exactly see her crumple do we?

She is hiding her face from Alviarin because her Aes Sedai disguise looks like her actual self. It makes great sense to not reveal that to an underling greedy for power.

Nothing in her behavior says anything about her strength in the OP.


I think what Anaiya's comment is supposed to mean is that being strong gives you a bit of swagger, that doesn't seem crazy to me, especially from a modern Aes Sedai. But I agree that we've got plenty of examples of strong people being inept as well as weak one's being effective ... look at Shemerin, she was a level 15, quite high for Aes Sedai, but was also totally inept! Something RJ had to go out of his way to explain (she's got one of the more flushed out entries in the Companion)

Swagger is not what Anaiya meant. She was specifically talking about picking a woman strong in the OP to be Amyrlin Seat, and she specifically says that the strong will that supposedly goes with strength will be a benefit to such a woman. The irony is pretty thick, because we see this from Siuan's PoV when she has no strength in the Power at all, yet she is manipulating Anaiya. RJ is subtly sniggering at Aes Sedai notions of the importance of strength.

Shemerin came later, and reinforced the point. But the point was there from the beginning.


It's exception when someone weaker is exceptional

Only in the minds of Aes Sedai and Aes Sedai trained. No Wise One is surprised that Sorilea is strong willed. Egwene brings up Sorilea and Bair and their strength of will how many times? She keeps marveling at it, but the point of that isn't to tell you strong willed women weak in the OP are rare. The point is that the Aes Sedai notion of the importance of OP strength is retarded.
, that's pretty consistent throughout the books, so much so that RJ went out of his way to point it out most of the time. Cadsuane had to tell us that Daigian had "one of the finest minds" in the Tower, yet she still spend 48 years in training (close to 2x the next slowest learner). All part of his illustration of her power level.

No... illustration of the retardedness of the Tower! I can't believe that you took Cadsuane's statement to mean "Daigian is exceptional". She clearly derides the system that would make stronger AS ignrore Daigian's mind, and talk freely around her. She fully intends to use that to her advantage. This does not mean she endorses the AS view that weak AS are next to worthless! Nor is she saying a weak AS with a fine mind is a rarity, because Kumira is also weak, also likely to be ignored, and also brilliant.
Mesaana had weak motivations for turning to the Shadow, did comparatively less than others during the WoP and generally hid behind an alliance with more powerful allies. Adds up to a weaker individual IMO.

Mesaana's motivation is no weaker than Asmodean's, or any number of others. During the WoP, her schools were considered to be hugely influential. She was one of the Shadow's prime administrators, remember?

But again... why does any of this have anything to do with OP strength?

Reply to message
Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3297 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1037 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1034 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1172 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1068 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1151 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1169 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1365 Views
I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 30/11/2015 03:21:00 PM 1034 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1162 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1194 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1144 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1211 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1170 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1321 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1284 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1274 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1091 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1316 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1167 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1019 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1286 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1148 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1239 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1320 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1089 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1214 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1086 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1021 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1054 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1052 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1088 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1137 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1045 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1279 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1079 Views
We've been arguing on the forums for like 10 years - 06/12/2015 07:36:55 PM 1019 Views
It's Cannoli, Darius - 06/12/2015 08:53:06 PM 1041 Views
LOL *NM* - 07/12/2015 03:26:40 AM 635 Views
Some points - 05/12/2015 11:14:30 AM 1043 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1113 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1029 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1035 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1059 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 689 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1054 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1024 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1213 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1091 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1121 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1148 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1142 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 02:26:53 AM 1087 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1106 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1158 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 998 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1033 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1215 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1060 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1143 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1196 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1002 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1071 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 998 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 993 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1033 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1043 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1218 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1170 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1209 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1410 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1074 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1245 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 946 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1017 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 953 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 949 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1242 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1077 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1402 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 955 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1163 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1034 Views
Probably something along those lines - 10/12/2015 03:44:48 PM 923 Views
Lifespan question (Spoiler) - 08/12/2015 05:42:41 PM 957 Views
Moiraine... - 09/12/2015 02:28:50 AM 1000 Views
That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 988 Views
Some random trends/data points - 08/12/2015 08:39:14 PM 993 Views
Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 661 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1056 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 876 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1068 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 569 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 602 Views
so.... - 09/12/2015 06:10:41 AM 1060 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2015 03:24:07 PM 1007 Views
Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 968 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 985 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:43:35 AM 955 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 898 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 953 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 995 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 917 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 947 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1037 Views
This is a flawed list - 11/12/2015 05:14:47 AM 937 Views
and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1052 Views
another point about Talents (unrelated to the Strength question) - 11/12/2015 06:06:42 PM 1144 Views
Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 998 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1022 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 960 Views
Let's face it a body builder ninja is sort of funny to think about - 12/12/2015 02:55:37 PM 1054 Views
Some quotes - 12/12/2015 01:18:41 AM 929 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 03:18:30 AM 1009 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 998 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 961 Views
Re: Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 13/12/2015 11:26:17 AM 977 Views
Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 14/12/2015 04:40:50 PM 947 Views
Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 978 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 901 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1019 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 611 Views
I don't think Elayne was that Strong in TSR - 10/12/2015 04:55:19 PM 983 Views
Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 940 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1025 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 977 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1001 Views
Greens... - 10/12/2015 12:24:11 AM 969 Views
Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 916 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 953 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 957 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 969 Views
I'm not so sure you'd have a chioce - 10/12/2015 04:01:35 PM 929 Views
Liandrin's 13 - 10/12/2015 09:14:50 PM 1108 Views
Explain - 11/12/2015 05:16:55 AM 1028 Views
Several reasons ... Edited for clarity - 11/12/2015 02:54:58 PM 1116 Views
Bowl of the Winds Circle - 14/12/2015 09:41:33 PM 960 Views
The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 942 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 969 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1118 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1002 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1003 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1119 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1169 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1166 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 938 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1081 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1000 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 948 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1076 Views
Tamra's known hunters - 04/01/2016 06:58:17 PM 1024 Views
Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 911 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1064 Views

Reply to Message