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Re: Here's how I see it: DomA Send a noteboard - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM

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I'd say each "level" is a range. A small range, with the upper end of a lower level butting up right against the lower level of the next highest one.

It's that. It's a continuous and linear scale, with each level covering an equal range. It's not stated black on white, but it's clear, notably when you see the life expectancy functions linearly, and that RJ made some comparisons by number of levels.

By the way, there was actually not a single mention in the notes Terez got at the library that the level system is more than RJ's meta-tool outside the fictional universe. Not once it's even hinted at that in the notes (or for that matter, the books) the White Tower uses a level system like this. I was a bit surprised that Harriet apparently decided it existed in the story. A lot of situations in the books seem to flagrantly contradict that (notably the numerous POV from sisters or even Forsaken that go out of their way to describe someone's strength by comparison rather than resorting to the scale, if it had existed. The vocabulary used to speak of strengths, whether by AS or AOLers, goes against that too. "As strong as a woman can be", "A sharp gap", "of not negligible strength" etc. It's all avoiding a formal scale, culturally . My guess is that they probably would have thought that vulgar/demeaning. No doubt there was a way to calculate precisely your strength, the way your calculate blood pressure, waistline, etc, but I don't think those numbers corresponded to "levels" nor that they were used by AS in daily life at all, in either age.

As for the WT, it's a strength gap that determines when deference/taking suggestions etc. begins. In the notes it said the gap starts at around 2 levels. The gap at which suggestions from a stronger sister become as good as orders is probably much larger than 2 levels (based on the way some of the stronger sisters tried to resist Cadsuane, I'd say it might as much as a gap of 6 to 8 levels)

In formal situations or when a definite hierarchy is required, sisters have ways to rank themselves, but in day-to-day situations, if falls back on personality, if the gap isn't large enough, and there's the other unwritten rule that a sister normally don't meddle in another's business.

I think the strength range covered by a level is larger than you imply when you say within a level they'd have to resort to duelling to decide exact strength. I think RJ was speaking of women who stood even closer than that in strength. RJ didn't need great precision (he would have assigned an exact strength to everyone, if he did), he invented that system largely to determine at a glance relationships betwen the AS, and eventually extended it, obviously to be able to keep track of the strength comparisons he was starting to include, and of certain details like gateways, etc. He devised the male levels, but by all evidence, he barely used the male scale at all in his notes.

I think he decided around the time of LOC (or before writing ACOS) to expand his original system (which I think covered only from the strength of Moiraine/Elaida at level 1 to what he saw then as the bottom level for the shawl at level 21). I think he likely started by subdividing his original scale to have a larger range of strengths for AS to use in Salidar or around Elaida, and with the Kin, the WF, the WO. This is when, indeed, strengths are really started to get discussed in the books.

I think this is when he built his "Aes Sedai bible", that is he created himself a bank of sisters, distributed roughly following his bell curve , assigned with an Ajah (to respect the proportions he had decided on), a level or range or levels, and occasionally other basic characteristics. He seems to have put a great deal of work into entering the new levels for women in his notes (the double system, we've surmised, was used to ensure no mistake and confusion between notes with the old system and notes with the new). Around the AS levels, he expanded the scale to cover all female strengths up to Lanfear, distributing the girls and the new stronger characters too, and he expanded it by the other end. My guess is that he set the last level at 66 to get 72 levels including the male ones, just because it was neat.

I think his notes assigning a strength to the male Forsaken (and the women) are from that time when he seemed somewhat enthusiastic about the new "complete" system. But it seems he never really bothered with it for the Asha'man, or extremely little. Male strengths are extremely rare in the notes.

Darius putting Morgase and Androl at level 66 is much too low (I think at level 66, a woman doesn't have the strength to do much at all with the OP, she just has the genetic abillity and can probably not be trained beyond touching the source, without involving an angreal, that is.

In a note relevant to Morgase's story, RJ said that below level 57, the ability to lift anything with the power (lifting stuff is a factor of comparison he used) drops to a feather. Morgase is at minimum 57, maybe a few levels above. She's very likely comparable to Sorilea. The difference is that Morgase doesn't have a personality that surrender control easily (like Nynaeve) and it would have been very hard for her to learn to grasp the source no matter what. As it was, her strength is way below the cut-off for the shawl, and even that to make Accepted. The AS awoke her ability for political motives, and I doubt they put that much effort into it when it was clear Morgase struggled. Sorilea, on the other hand, was taught as much as she could, and could perfectly embrace the Source at will and learn difficult weaves that she couldn't even make work. The WO understood that very weak women may not be able to channel much, but they still could pass on all their OP knowledge to their future pupils... I doubt the WO have lost weaves nearly as often as the WT did...

As for Androl, personally I suspect the last 6 levels aren't used for men. A level 60 man is comparable in what he can do with saidin to what a level 66 woman can.

My guess is that Androl is in the lower 50s or very high 40s.

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Sortable, searchable file of Channelers - 28/11/2015 10:01:57 PM 3550 Views
Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 04:15:17 PM 1293 Views
Re: Outstanding job - 29/11/2015 06:53:40 PM 1269 Views
Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 04:41:52 PM 1439 Views
Re: Very impressive. Well done. - 29/11/2015 06:54:02 PM 1306 Views
Quick Question - 30/11/2015 05:11:17 AM 1449 Views
Nope - 30/11/2015 05:44:04 AM 1468 Views
They do say it - 30/11/2015 10:32:48 AM 1623 Views
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Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 01/12/2015 08:02:01 AM 1416 Views
Well, it also states that there are gradations within each level too - 01/12/2015 04:26:29 PM 1443 Views
Well maybe - 02/12/2015 06:31:05 AM 1429 Views
Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 08:34:54 AM 1452 Views
I agree - 02/12/2015 04:22:52 PM 1454 Views
Re: I agree - 02/12/2015 05:14:50 PM 1624 Views
It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 06:00:01 PM 1598 Views
Re: It's always been confusing - 02/12/2015 07:27:11 PM 1555 Views
I wholeheartedly agree - 02/12/2015 08:07:39 PM 1369 Views
Re: Here's how I see it: - 02/12/2015 04:46:54 PM 1613 Views
Morgase - 03/12/2015 04:37:47 AM 1490 Views
I agree with you on this - 03/12/2015 03:22:22 PM 1301 Views
Re: Morgase - 03/12/2015 07:46:59 PM 1597 Views
I didn't realize he was being literal in that comment - 03/12/2015 09:29:52 PM 1420 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 03:52:49 PM 1541 Views
Re: Well maybe - 02/12/2015 04:42:37 PM 1597 Views
Probably - 02/12/2015 06:11:42 PM 1369 Views
Re: Probably - 02/12/2015 07:38:50 PM 1472 Views
Indeed - 02/12/2015 08:21:07 PM 1343 Views
Re: Indeed - 03/12/2015 04:08:03 AM 1308 Views
close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 03:47:55 PM 1310 Views
Re: close enough to not debate about it - 03/12/2015 04:14:38 PM 1310 Views
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 04:43:29 PM 1367 Views
Re: I think you misunderstand what I'm saying - 03/12/2015 05:41:17 PM 1383 Views
um, no - 03/12/2015 09:24:31 PM 1306 Views
You two seem like Egwene's interchangeable defenders to me; it's weird to see you fighting. - 04/12/2015 09:21:23 PM 1653 Views
That's on you... - 04/12/2015 09:46:51 PM 1328 Views
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Re: close enough to not debate about it - 05/12/2015 11:29:44 AM 1354 Views
Re: I added Rand and Lews Therin to the ++1 Strength - 03/12/2015 07:22:15 AM 1260 Views
Great job - 30/11/2015 05:45:27 AM 1314 Views
Re: Great job - 30/11/2015 03:22:09 PM 1305 Views
Made a few adjustments to add some presumed minimum/maximum levels *NM* - 30/11/2015 04:28:13 PM 875 Views
Some questions - 30/11/2015 05:18:00 PM 1292 Views
Re: Some questions - 30/11/2015 07:26:29 PM 1305 Views
Re: Some questions - 01/12/2015 08:05:01 AM 1485 Views
That's why I added another column to it - 01/12/2015 04:25:04 PM 1371 Views
Some more - 01/12/2015 05:24:40 PM 1387 Views
Re: Some more - 01/12/2015 07:34:20 PM 1409 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 12:27:40 AM 1431 Views
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Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 08:24:49 AM 1401 Views
Re: Some more - 02/12/2015 05:54:49 PM 1437 Views
Re: Some more - 03/12/2015 04:26:45 AM 1244 Views
You said this much better than I did - 03/12/2015 03:53:57 PM 1296 Views
I think the men are much too strong - 02/12/2015 09:01:56 AM 1462 Views
Yes - 02/12/2015 03:06:44 PM 1291 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 04:45:20 PM 1408 Views
Re: Yes - 02/12/2015 06:39:43 PM 1456 Views
Re: Yes - 03/12/2015 03:56:23 AM 1248 Views
I think when characters quoted information from their world it gets muddled - 03/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1364 Views
Shielding - 05/12/2015 11:19:40 AM 1219 Views
I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 06/12/2015 06:41:35 PM 1239 Views
Re: I feel like there is an RJ quote about this actually - 07/12/2015 12:39:54 PM 1301 Views
seriously! - 07/12/2015 04:55:43 PM 1292 Views
Who should defer to whom? - 01/12/2015 08:17:22 PM 1446 Views
Interesting... - 02/12/2015 08:44:32 AM 1451 Views
I think there needs to be a pretty significant (5+ levels) difference - 02/12/2015 06:25:35 PM 1457 Views
Good job - 05/12/2015 08:43:09 PM 1824 Views
Some questions - 06/12/2015 12:28:46 AM 1303 Views
Can't offer much - 06/12/2015 12:33:29 AM 1633 Views
Cool. Hopefully Dom will see this... - 06/12/2015 08:58:39 PM 1225 Views
Re: Some questions - 06/12/2015 08:06:56 PM 1265 Views
Then there would be some mention of it, yes/ - 06/12/2015 08:56:10 PM 1261 Views
Not at all ... He clearly had a general sense of how it worked - 07/12/2015 03:28:35 AM 1195 Views
Re: Some questions - 07/12/2015 04:19:43 PM 1528 Views
yet we also know that some things are inherently different for men and women - 07/12/2015 08:15:26 PM 1215 Views
it probably has to do with the fact that the characters in the books are also obsessed with strength - 06/12/2015 07:58:20 PM 1329 Views
Sort of. - 06/12/2015 10:30:36 PM 1809 Views
Makes sense - 07/12/2015 12:38:54 AM 1233 Views
Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 07/12/2015 07:39:59 PM 1450 Views
Re: Clearly his strength rankings came in mid-series - 10/12/2015 05:33:27 AM 1266 Views
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That too is possible - 09/12/2015 03:02:12 PM 1234 Views
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Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:42:51 AM 816 Views
Re: Who is the one Sharan? And I'm surprised so many Seanchan have listed strength levels. - 09/12/2015 02:31:18 PM 1330 Views
Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 03:22:17 PM 1155 Views
Re: Not sure she can channel, though - 09/12/2015 04:54:37 PM 1320 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:36 PM 740 Views
duplicate post ignore *NM* - 09/12/2015 02:31:55 PM 766 Views
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Yes - 09/12/2015 03:46:30 PM 1215 Views
Some things to consider - 09/12/2015 04:18:50 PM 1229 Views
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Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 06:28:49 AM 1161 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 11:53:51 AM 1209 Views
Sorilea has always been shown as skilled - 10/12/2015 04:10:37 PM 1289 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 04:46:29 PM 1206 Views
Re: Some things to consider - 10/12/2015 05:50:17 PM 1203 Views
plenty of weaker ones with notably strong Talents actually - 10/12/2015 06:26:03 PM 1261 Views
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and you are just rationalizing to make your point seem plausible - 11/12/2015 03:10:12 PM 1318 Views
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Not really - 11/12/2015 09:09:41 PM 1287 Views
You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 11/12/2015 10:13:13 PM 1298 Views
Re: You are trying to force fit thin evidence into a sweeping statement - 12/12/2015 06:46:05 AM 1200 Views
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Re: Some things to consider - 12/12/2015 06:19:15 AM 1258 Views
Hey ... I have no interest in making you look stupid! - 12/12/2015 03:15:26 PM 1204 Views
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Re: Yes, it's a sad thing to realize that this is pretty much the end of the road - 15/12/2015 06:01:58 AM 1235 Views
I'm actually perplexed - 15/12/2015 07:19:27 AM 1166 Views
Re: I'm actually perplexed - 17/12/2015 11:36:59 AM 1306 Views
LOL ... Amen! *NM* - 15/12/2015 03:54:55 PM 775 Views
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Yes and No - 09/12/2015 04:35:48 PM 1178 Views
Re: Yes and No - 09/12/2015 10:41:32 PM 1305 Views
Indeed - 09/12/2015 11:01:03 PM 1253 Views
Ajah Strength Index - 09/12/2015 10:45:29 PM 1237 Views
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Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 03:12:21 AM 1157 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:59:42 AM 1213 Views
Re: Me too honestly - 10/12/2015 04:18:00 PM 1236 Views
Re: Ajah Strength Index - 10/12/2015 05:40:39 AM 1225 Views
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The Cleansing Circles ... some speculation here - 15/12/2015 05:52:14 PM 1224 Views
If I was Cadsuane I would have done it differently - 15/12/2015 10:01:07 PM 1266 Views
Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 01:11:17 AM 1378 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:54:28 AM 1409 Views
mostly agree - 16/12/2015 06:27:06 PM 1253 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 16/12/2015 06:50:27 PM 1540 Views
Re: Aran'gar - 17/12/2015 10:07:48 AM 1445 Views
We do have some additional clues - 17/12/2015 06:26:20 PM 1444 Views
additional thought - 16/12/2015 06:49:04 PM 1212 Views
Does she know that? - 16/12/2015 06:58:24 PM 1385 Views
I'm speculating of course - 16/12/2015 07:37:10 PM 1265 Views
Strength by National origin - 16/12/2015 09:04:11 PM 1193 Views
Rebels v. Loyalists! - 16/12/2015 10:29:28 PM 1306 Views
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Known... - 05/01/2016 01:54:56 AM 1174 Views
Re: Known... - 05/01/2016 02:55:50 AM 1386 Views

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