Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: That makes more sense, to me ... by Sidious

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Re: That makes more sense, to me ... Sidious Send a noteboard - 03/10/2009 06:53:45 AM

They way I understand it, the reduction in strength only affects the members of the circle and not the leader. The leader can access all of his/her strength, but the other members cannot because there is a metaphysical narrowing of all the other conduits as they enter the leader.

Yeah, that makes sense. I don't see why the link should affect the leader's ability to draw his/her full strength.

Thus if 10 women of 10 strength link, their combined strength will be (1x10) + (9x9) = 91.

If we say a 2 women of 10 strength link results in 19, then it's either 10+9 or 9.5+9.5. Therefore, if 10 women of 10 strength lin, the result is either 91 (as you said), or 95 (10*9.5). Your way results in a lower number, but (as I said) I think it makes more sense.

I also therefore don't agree that a male will actually be weaker if he only channels saidin in a mixed link. Only he can lead, and he can access all of his strength, therefore his strength will be the same.

Right, that was the point I was trying to make previously. If you're right about where the link-loss occurs (i.e. only in the non-leading members), then the male leader in your example should not experience a loss in saidin strength.

I sort of see it like this... say if Sandomere and Ayako link to make a fireball, and he has to lead. He must decide on how much saidin to use, and how much saidar. The effective strength of the fireball will be something like this IMO...

Saidin Saidar Strength of Weave
100 0 100
75 25 150
50 50 300
25 75 150
0 100 100

Yeah,something like that. The bottom line is, for a given "Z" amount of OP used in a weave, comprising "X" amount of saidin and "Y" amount of saidar, where X+Y=Z, the closer the balance between X & Y, the more potent the result.

However, I don't think your numbers above are quite right. Consider, if 50/50 results in 300, then 100/50 should result in >300. If the weave starts out as 50/50, and Sandomere starts pumping in more saidin from 50->100 (leaving saidar as 50), the strength of the weave should increase, right? But, your 75/25 only results in 150. Meaning (using the same math), 100/50 would result in 300 - same as 50/50.

So, it probably needs to be more like this:

100 0 100
75 25 200 (25/25 would = 150, then add 50 for the extra 50 saidin)
50 50 300
25 75 200 (25/25 would = 150, then add 50 for the extra 50 saidar)
0 100 100

For "m" units of one half of the OP and "n" units of the other half, where m<=n (i.e. m is the smaller number in an unbalanced weave), the potency formula would be:

6*m + (n-m) = 5m + n

So, for example, weaves of 150/30, 100/40, and 50/50 are the same strength (300).

There are many other factors though. The two powers may be exponential when added, but it also depends on how strong he is compared to her. If Rand linked with Moiraine, I doubt he'd allocate equal portions to a fireball. Likewise, a woman might be stressed to weave Fire whereas a male might find it easy. We already can see that if a male and female link they can make a bigger gateway than Rand can, which means that the benefit is enormous.

Yeah, if Rand is strength 100 and Mo is 40, then a 100/40 fireball should be stronger than a 40/40 fireball, as I explained above. So the leader should always draw the max he can from himself + each member, to create the strongest possible weave from that paticular circle, even if that results in a big imbalance between the amount of saidin and saidar used.

And there are other factors, too. Like if the leader has a Talent for a particular weave.

Well I was talking more about percentages - what percent of the fireball is saidin and what is saidar. It should probably then be seen as a multiplier.

For instance, to get the maximum multiplier (in my example it's 3) out of the two Powers, one needs to combine them in an equal ratio. If the male provides 50% saidin and 50% saidar the multiplier is 3. The strength of the fireball then relies on the amount of the Power he adds to it. The strongest fireball will then be all of his strength and all of the woman's in a 50/50 ratio.

The way in which he affects the ratio is important IMO. If he's using half his strength, and half her strength in a 50/50 ratio, and he wants to add strength to the fireball, he cannot just add saidin... he must add both powers equally, otherwise the multiplier is altered...

50/50 --> add saidin only --> ratio now 75/25 --> multiplier down to 1.5

Therefore say the original fireball has 10 saidin and saidar ... (10+10) x 3 = 60 effective power.

If he adds only saidin, say another 10, he'll bring the multiplier down, because the two powers are out of balance but still synergistic.

(20+10) x 1.5 = 45 effective strength.

If however, he adds 5 saidin and 5 saidar, he maintains the ratio...

(15+15) x 3 = 90 effective strength.

This sort of explains why a circle of an Ash'aman and Aes Sedai can weave a bigger gateway than Rand...

Rand = 100

Circle = (20+20) x 3 = 120

Circle of 3 kin = (10+10+10) x 1.5 = 45 (it takes three weak kin to Travel even with a link, and now we know why).

These are all very hypothetical, but valuable. Just using this, you can play with what the Forsaken faced at the Cleansing...

Demandred : (20+20+20) x 3 = 180 (vs his 95)

Graendal : (20+20+20+10) x 1.5 = 105 (vs her 90) (I gave Verin an angreal of 10

)

Aran'gar : (20+20+10) x 3 = 150 (vs her 90)

Cyndane :

0x3) = 270 (vs her 90)

I hope you enjoyed my random maths

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear

Reply to message

Male/Female circles whoohtown - 25/09/2009 09:33:38 PM 832 Views

Yes; somewhat. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/09/2009 10:57:35 PM 511 Views

Re: Yes; somewhat. Sidious - 26/09/2009 06:19:45 AM 453 Views

Why would saidar surprise him? fionwe1987 - 26/09/2009 03:40:23 PM 485 Views

Re: Why would saidar surprise him? Sidious - 26/09/2009 06:34:04 PM 463 Views

He thought they were Aes Sedai who could not channel?

fionwe1987 - 26/09/2009 07:02:42 PM 410 Views

He did not know they were Aes Sedai until after the mixed weave struck his warding. Shannow - 26/09/2009 10:13:10 PM 402 Views

You're right. I misremembered. *NM* fionwe1987 - 26/09/2009 10:17:22 PM 191 Views

right... whoohtown - 26/09/2009 02:56:26 PM 463 Views

Re: right... Timthetrolloc - 26/09/2009 07:49:21 PM 446 Views

I think Lanfear clears this up... Heiko - 27/09/2009 05:19:37 AM 469 Views

But he did see the weaves AgentOrange - 29/09/2009 03:38:10 PM 415 Views

Agreed, plus some numbers ... Shishka - 28/09/2009 07:50:54 PM 421 Views

I don't agree with some of this Sidious - 28/09/2009 09:37:13 PM 417 Views

Re: I don't agree with some of this Shishka - 29/09/2009 02:39:46 PM 450 Views

Re: I don't agree with some of this Sidious - 29/09/2009 06:07:56 PM 383 Views

Re: I don't agree with some of this Shishka - 29/09/2009 07:00:28 PM 417 Views

Re: I don't agree with some of this Sidious - 29/09/2009 08:25:19 PM 491 Views

I understand what you're saying ... Shishka - 30/09/2009 04:04:17 PM 414 Views

Indeed Sidious - 30/09/2009 04:32:37 PM 367 Views

Re: Indeed Shishka - 30/09/2009 07:05:13 PM 445 Views

Some proof against your idea... fionwe1987 - 01/10/2009 03:37:48 AM 419 Views

Nice, thanks ... Shishka - 01/10/2009 02:00:24 PM 383 Views

Re: Nice, thanks ... Sidious - 01/10/2009 04:58:02 PM 431 Views

That makes more sense, to me ... Shishka - 01/10/2009 06:44:44 PM 473 Views

Re: That makes more sense, to me ... Sidious - 03/10/2009 06:53:45 AM 487 Views

Re: Male/Female circles eromreven - 27/09/2009 02:19:31 PM 426 Views

Re: Male/Female circles Code_Man65 - 28/09/2009 03:58:15 PM 414 Views

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<quote id="28875">
<quote id="27924"><quote>They way I understand it, the reduction in strength only affects the members of the circle and not the leader. The leader can access all of his/her strength, but the other members cannot because there is a metaphysical narrowing of all the other conduits as they enter the leader.</quote>

Yeah, that makes sense.  I don't see why the link should affect the leader's ability to draw his/her full strength.

<quote>Thus if 10 women of 10 strength link, their combined strength will be (1x10) + (9x9) = 91.</quote>

If we say a 2 women of 10 strength link results in 19, then it's either 10+9 or 9.5+9.5.  Therefore, if 10 women of 10 strength lin, the result is either 91 (as you said), or 95 (10*9.5).  Your way results in a lower number, but (as I said) I think it makes more sense.

<quote>I also therefore don't agree that a male will actually be weaker if he only channels saidin in a mixed link. Only he can lead, and he can access all of his strength, therefore his strength will be the same.</quote>

Right, that was the point I was trying to make previously.  If you're right about where the link-loss occurs (i.e. only in the non-leading members), then the male leader in your example should not experience a loss in saidin strength.

<quote>I sort of see it like this... say if Sandomere and Ayako link to make a fireball, and he has to lead. He must decide on how much saidin to use, and how much saidar. The effective strength of the fireball will be something like this IMO...

Saidin  Saidar  Strength of Weave
100     0       100
75      25      150
50      50      300
25      75      150
0       100     100
</quote>

However, I don't think your numbers above are quite right.  Consider, if 50/50 results in 300, then 100/50 should result in >300.  If the weave starts out as 50/50, and Sandomere starts pumping in more saidin from 50->100 (leaving saidar as 50), the strength of the weave should increase, right?  But, your 75/25 only results in 150.  Meaning (using the same math), 100/50 would result in 300 - same as 50/50.

So, it probably needs to be more like this:

100     0       100
75      25      200 (25/25 would = 150, then add 50 for the extra 50 saidin)
50      50      300
25      75      200 (25/25 would = 150, then add 50 for the extra 50 saidar)
0       100     100

For "m" units of one half of the OP and "n" units of the other half, where m<=n (i.e. m is the smaller number in an unbalanced weave), the potency formula would be:

6*m + (n-m) = 5m + n

So, for example, weaves of 150/30, 100/40, and 50/50 are the same strength (300).

<quote>There are many other factors though. The two powers may be exponential when added, but it also depends on how strong he is compared to her. If Rand linked with Moiraine, I doubt he'd allocate equal portions to a fireball. Likewise, a woman might be stressed to weave Fire whereas a male might find it easy. We already can see that if a male and female link they can make a bigger gateway than Rand can, which means that the benefit is enormous.</quote>

Yeah, if Rand is strength 100 and Mo is 40, then a 100/40 fireball should be stronger than a 40/40 fireball, as I explained above.  So the leader should always draw the max he can from himself + each member, to create the strongest possible weave from that paticular circle, even if that results in a big imbalance between the amount of saidin and saidar used.

And there are other factors, too.  Like if the leader has a Talent for a particular weave.</quote>

Well I was talking more about percentages - what percent of the fireball is saidin and what is saidar. It should probably then be seen as a multiplier.

For instance, to get the maximum multiplier (in my example it's 3) out of the two Powers, one needs to combine them in an equal ratio. If the male provides 50% saidin and 50% saidar the multiplier is 3. The strength of the fireball then relies on the amount of the Power he adds to it. The strongest fireball will then be all of his strength and all of the woman's in a 50/50 ratio.

The way in which he affects the ratio is important IMO. If he's using half his strength, and half her strength in a 50/50 ratio, and he wants to add strength to the fireball, he cannot just add saidin... he must add both powers equally, otherwise the multiplier is altered...

50/50 --> add saidin only --> ratio now 75/25 --> multiplier down to 1.5

Therefore say the original fireball has 10 saidin and saidar ... (10+10) x 3 = 60 effective power.

If he adds only saidin, say another 10, he'll bring the multiplier down, because the two powers are out of balance but still synergistic.

(20+10) x 1.5 = 45 effective strength.

If however, he adds 5 saidin and 5 saidar, he maintains the ratio...

(15+15) x 3 = 90 effective strength.

This sort of explains why a circle of an Ash'aman and Aes Sedai can weave a bigger gateway than Rand...

Rand = 100

Circle = (20+20) x 3 = 120

Circle of 3 kin = (10+10+10) x 1.5 = 45 (it takes three weak kin to Travel even with a link, and now we know why).

These are all very hypothetical, but valuable. Just using this, you can play with what the Forsaken faced at the Cleansing...

Demandred : (20+20+20) x 3 = 180 (vs his 95)

Graendal : (20+20+20+10) x 1.5 = 105 (vs her 90) (I gave Verin an angreal of 10 ;))

Aran'gar : (20+20+10) x 3 = 150 (vs her 90)

Cyndane : (80x3) = 270 (vs her 90)

I hope you enjoyed my random maths ;)
</quote>

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