Exactly, and that is what Siuan chastised them for. Her lie confirmed to them they had to stay, and her exhortations started making them plan for it, but they wouldn't have just gone back without her.

You forget that a bunch of these women actually led an assault to free Siuan. Siuan, or her lie, had nothing to do with them taking that very drastic step. And we've seen time and again that they consider Rebellion to be small compared to sisters fighting sisters in the White Tower. For any number of these women, that ultimate step was already taken.

Insofar as they made Elaida even more illegitimate in their eyes, yes. But a large number of Blues and Greens, at least, had led a violent assault against a "legal" Amyrlin on the illegitimacy of Siuan's deposal. Separatism is small pickings compared to that. And remember, they had word out to other sisters to come to Salidar, hardly something you do if some kind of separate front is not anticipated.

With Sheriam running the show? Small chance. I also doubt people like Romanda would have let themselves be deterred like that. Siuan's lie gave them the way to draw in more sisters, I'm sure, and to keep some of them there. But I see no way in which the core bunch would just fold to Tarna.

Remember, well before they could be aware of Siuan or her lie, the Ajah Heads sent over Sitters to try and soothe the Rebels. And with enough instructions, apparently, to make sure only younger women were chosen Sitters, so they could be replaced once the Tower was unified. Its pretty clear they could anticipate the formation of a Rebel Hall, as it has happened before in Tower history, if not with the present geographic separation. Every Ajah but the Red was represented among the Rebels, and it seemed beyond obvious they would choose a Hall, to the original Ajah Heads. There was no way, once Siuan arrived and had Leane suggest the formation of a Hall in Salidar, for those Sitters to ask for instructions from Tar Valon. They were either already there or on their way. Between Siuan's arrival in tFoH, and the prologue of LoC, the Hall has already been chosen. No time to compare strategies with the Ajah Heads in the Tower, yet we know from Romanda that Magla insisted on Salita for the Hall, and similar stuff happened in all other Ajahs but the Blue.

Wait, a group deeply suspicious of her, enough to oppose her actions violently, and to flee the Tower when that failed would somehow accept their lot and have fewer issues with her seizing more power?

I'm confused what you mean here. The too young Sitters in the Rebel Camp were Egwene's strongest supporters when it came to keeping the Rebellion alive. All of them stood without prompting when Egwene declared war on Elaida. It was the old ones, even among the Blues, who did not.

If the aim of the original Sitters among the Rebels was to bring in Sitters they could control and therefore keep the Rebellion low key, they failed miserably.

No it isn't. We know Shien Chunla was deposed and exiled, and only smothered to death when yet another plot was discovered to put her back on the Amyrlin Seat. Hardly something that would be possible if she was stilled.

But she didn't hide it. She did reveal it to the Hall once Rand took up Callandor, and there was no doubt who he was.

The Halls pique was that Moiraine's presence meant Siuan had known before that. But Siuan had good reason to keep that knowledge close. Till there was definite proof Rand was the Dragon Reborn, there was too much chance some moron Aes Sedai (most likely from the Red) would try to gentle him. As Siuan knew very well, the Blacks had once before been able to use the Red's overzealousness to engineer a large number of illegal gentlings. How was she to prevent that without keeping things secret till there was a clear sign that Rand was the Dragon Reborn, and no one could doubt her evidence?

But not who he was or how old.

Not because the Black Ajah knew, but because of Ishamael! How was Siuan to know he was free, had access to Rand's dreams, and able to impart that info to other Darkfriends?

Secondly, it wasn't just the Blacks she had to fear. The Reds might well be used as their catspaw again, if they didn't believe he was actually the Dragon Reborn.

But not only hers.

This is completely untrue, so I'm not sure what to say. Also, even if stilling was commonplace, declaring the former Amyrlin a Darkfriend almost certainly was not, yet Elaida did just that to try and bolster her paper thin case. That was a move of staggering idiocy, and instead of bolstering her case, only made any number of Aes Sedai sure that she had just created a false case to depose Siuan and seize power.

They're hardly the same. Joline's grudge is that Merillile made Joline feel ashamed she didn't know the answer to her questions. Siuan's grudge, such as it was, was rooted in Elaida physically assaulting her and her best friend for three nights.

That is why she was punished. But that is not the only thing she did wrong. Not one single Aes Sedai test we have seen involved constant physical assault through all 100 weaves with barely any break. Even if it had been, "I only beat you because I want you to succeed" is hardly acceptable as any kind of excuse.

What Elaida did is a major offense by Aes Sedai law, since she physically assaulted an initiate with the One Power. The technicality that she was doing this to "help" them was what allowed Merean (for whatever her goals were) to not have Elaida birched and exiled. That doesn't, however, take away from the fact that this was an atrocious way for a teacher to treat a student. And comparing it to Merrillile's actions is absurd and cheap.

Siuan was to know this how?

Further, at that very time, Tamra and a bunch of her searchers were doing far more for Tarmon Gaidon than Elaida was. Elaida misinterpreted her Foretelling, and then did worse with it. If Siuan is to be chastised for keeping the Dragon Reborn hidden from the Hall, how in the world is it okay for Elaida to keep what she believed was the salvation of the world from the Hall? Instead of doing that, she used her knowledge for personal gain. She tied herself to who she saw would be the Royal Family, and got herself named as the advisor to Morghase. Siuan at least had the fear of the Black Ajah to explain her secrecy. What reason did Elaida have?

So much so that on the mere suspicion that Siuan and Moiraine had gone to Merean, Elaida tried her hardest to fail Moiraine? Please. We know enough of Elaida to know that even her best intentions don't stand the test of her megalomania. She probably figured that breaking the rules to have two powerful sisters indebted to her, who may otherwise be her rivals, was a good way to make sure she was in command come Tarmon Gaidon.

But did not knock her on the head with the Power and have her bundled off to the Tower, you will notice.

To us maybe. And there are several holes in that version visible even to me with my deeper knowledge on this compared to Siuan. All she and Moiraine saw were a power mad woman who set impossible standards for them go overboard once again.

She did, by all accounts. How exactly did she let this grudge affect her decisions?

Because Elaida was a Red, not because she abused her as an Accepted.

But when did she? Pre-coup, she didn't treat Elaida particularly meanly or anything. She was wary of her and didn't treat her as a confidante, but in this her treatment of Elaida is no different than her treatment of Leane!

Cetalia can hardly lie. She makes it clear the only reason she wants Siuan is because Siuan has a reputation for being very good with puzzles.

Then Cadsuane is also a child, at 300? Please. Wanting adventure is a feature of Blues and Greeens, according to Romanda. Siuan wanted to see the world, hardly an idiotic notion at that age. The moment a worthwhile cause came her way, though, you see her drop those plans. We also see her quickly adapt to her forced confinement in the Tower and see the advantages in it for her cause. Two years from the end of New Spring, she could have easily dumped Cetalia's job and gone off searching for the Dragon, like Moiraine, but she stuck to the job and used it to help Moiraine. Hardly the signs of immaturity.

She certainly got too much authority too young, but calling her an extreme personality is weird. None of her actions suggest extremity to me. She's flexible and adaptable, as even Fain notes.

And her need for glory that made her keep the importance of the Trakands, as she saw it, secret?

How is this better than Siuan? Elaida being raised when Siuan would make her better as Amyrlin than when she forced herself into power, but that doesn't in any way make her better than Siuan herself. Siuan, remember, was picked for her vast administrative experience for one so young. Since that judgment was made by a White Sitter, this can't just be her role as Blue Spymaster. If, among a bunch of women who are trapped in the Tower doing nothing but administration, you stand out for administrative skills, it seems clear you're better at it than someone who advised a Queen who seemed to ignore you more often than not.

Whoa there's so much wrong here... Of course Liandrin spouted something about working with someone you don't like. That benefitted her here! It had nothing to do with being a Red.

The Red Ajah has an official policy banning friendships with any other Ajah. How the heck is that pragmatic? That is insular, and frankly stupid. The best Reds now have no chance to have friends in other Ajahs advocating for them when it comes to picking Amyrlins, neatly explaining why no single Red made it to the Amyrlin Seat in a 1000 years. Pragmatic? Bah!

As he did no woman who could channel, really. But you will notice his views on her were very different than his views on more typical Aes Sedai like Moiraine or Verin.

That's a stretch. He did not believe he should let himself be beholden to her, certainly. But never once did he say or think anything that implied he thought Siuan wouldn't be able to handle the Tower itself.

That was hardly the plan. The plan was for Siuan to use her influence to gather the nobles and rulers of the land behind Rand. She was certainly well suited to that task. Better than Elaida, who focussed on Andor to the exclusion of everything else.

Exactly what Siuan was worried about, in her conversation with Min. As she says, there were any number of people who would have tried to have him killed, Prophesies or no Prophesies. Which is why her support as Amyrlin, and her use of her extensive network of agents could have helped.

If Rand had followed Moiraine's advice, he would have attacked Illian. With conformation from a Sister that Illian was ruled by Sammael, Siuan would have been able to gather quite a bit of support for Rand's cause, tying multiple rulers to him. I'm not saying it was a foolproof plan, but it could have worked.

Sure, but I never said Rand harbored any love for Siuan. But he could safely have trusted her not to kidnap him, for instance, and certainly not to want to keep him locked away from the world. As you can see from her conversation with Min in tSR, her biggest fear is that he would get himself killed. She may have sent him support, argued with some of his schemes, but in the long term, she'd have helped him, especially if Moiraine was by his side to foster communication between them.

And she knew this before hand? How is her eventual death relevant here?

No, she wants to be the best at her task. Importance doesn't enter into it.

She does. She thinks Siuan had always thought too much of herself for being a fisherman's daughter. The only time Siuan "defied" Elaida, as far as Elaida knows, is when she supposedly told Merean about Elaida's beatings.

Certainly, she remembered they were close, and therefore must be in cahoots. I don't see how any of this proves Siuan let her resentment of Elaida rule their interactions.

Elaida did have ideas. She wanted Rand dead, before she found out he was the Dragon Reborn. She wanted to kill a ta'veren because he might bring strife to Andor. Once she found out he was the Dragon, she wanted to capture him, and regretted that she had let him get away when she had him in her hand.

Siuan was definitely influenced by Moiraine, but that only made sense. Moiraine was on the field, and knew Rand better. Rather than go with preconceived notions, Siuan was content to let the woman she trusted, and actually knew what was happening on the ground do the work, while she remotely worked to support those plans once she knew of them.

Puppet how? Siuan never gave a hint of wanting something from Rand. Other than wanting him alive for Tarmon Gaidon, and well supported. She certainly never saw Tower interests as above Rand, like Elaida did. How would Rand have been her puppet, if Siuan's only agenda was to get Rand the support he needed to fight Tarmon Gaidon, and keep him alive for that?

But that tied him down at the end, but it was certainly critical earlier. I don't think Rand as a monk who forsook all political power would have achieved anything at all. It was useless chaff when time came to go to Shayol Ghul. Not before.

But Siuan would have let him buck them. She damned well did when she was Amyrling. Once deposed, she worked to let him continue doing what he had to do. That's the point about her being someone easier to bend but harder to break. She wouldn't hold on tightly to everything she thought she valued and the Dragon Reborn be damned, like Elaida did.

Yeah, but I don't see ways for that reconciliation. Take Nynaeve teaching Egwene the importance of Aes Sedai marrying and being part of society. RJ had her learn and ruminate on that way back in Book 6. Yet in ToM, Brandon has her seem "troubled" by what Nynaeve says? It makes no sense! She spends books arguing that she is correct to let old women with ties to society become Aes Sedai, yet we're to believe the idea of Aes Sedai having links to society troubles her?

The same kind of nonsense can be seen with all the characters, of course. Which only confirms that RJ was right when he said there was only one book left. There wasn't a lot of character development to do, so Brandon just regurgitated old ones.