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Re: I disagree Cannoli Send a noteboard - 02/10/2009 08:31:29 PM
This blaming Elayne for not being omnipotent is really tiresome, considering it flys in the face of actual proven events.
Being omnipotent is not at all the same thing as stopping for a moment and deciding it might be a good idea to have someone on equal footing with a black sister check out the house before attacking. She could have easily let one of those "expendable" sisters try to find out information about the house Hark found before forming an inadequate invasion force. One of your points, about even awesome men not being up to such a task, means that it was very unlikely that Hark had seen all there was to see other than what they wanted him to see- therefore proving that rushing in there on his information alone was ridiculous. Not to mention trusting that a black ajah sister wasn't lying when she said there were only two of them. Hello.
Well, she WASN'T lying. It was said in an overheard conversation in circumstances that made a lie ridiculous. Even if they spotted Hark, how could they assume he was reporting to anyone? If they were trying to feed Elayne the information, it would have been a different source. In any event, the ambush was a suprise to the beneficiaries as well - they did not know themselves that Chesmal & co were even in town, much less preparing to grab Elayne. They were not working together, and their expressed objectives were mutually incompatible. Shiane's group was given direct orders by Moridin and was working for his ends, which involved getting rid of Elayne at the appropriate time for their plan, while the ambushers were freelancing, and came to the city hoping for a chance to snatch Elayne or Nynaeve to buy their way back into the good graces of the Forsaken. There was NO way to anticipate that ambush, especially as the group was taking pains to conceal itself from anyone else.

And tactically speaking, your suggestion sucks. You are suggesting what every commentator on the internet and snarky deconstructionist ridicules characters in horror movies for doing - splitting up to let the bad guys pick them off one by one! In military parlance such a result is called "defeat in detail." That is how Rand and Mat each fought the Seanchan in Altara, despite using much smaller forces - they attacked the Seanchan when the latter split up their forces, using their greater mobility to attack and defeat each smaller force before they could combine. That is how the Seanchan general stymied Rand, leading Bashere to suggest calling it quits - he did what Elayne did, and kept his forces together, forcing the enemy (Rand; Black Ajah) to face the combined strength of the entire force.

And even setting aside tactical principles, there is the personnel issue involved. Whom should Elayne have sent in as a PMD? She did not know if Sareitha or Careanne was the Black sister among her entourage, but she knew it was one of them. If she sent in the secret Black, she would be giving the game away, by allowing her to warn the Black sisters already inside, and giving them a chance to coordinate their plans. If she sent the innocent sister in, either she would come out, reporting the coast is clear, in which case she would have missed something, or else she would get captured or killed, both giving warning to the enemy and leaving Elayne with even less resources with which to confront the Black sisters remaining. Not only that, how could she know, if the sister sent in did not return, if she had been captured or was plotting with her fellow Blacks? Or if the sister she sent DID come out reporting all clear, how could she know that the sister was innocent and right, or innocent and mistaken, or Black and luring them into an ambush? And if she sent Vandene, that would leave her alone with two sisters she could not be sure of, and either there would NOT be a trap or more enemies inside, in which case all they were doing was risking Vandene being caught or alerting their quarry, or there would and Vandene would get killed or captured, in which case, Elayne MIGHT know what happened, but only have two sisters now left to fight at her side (one of whom she knows is Black), and not be any closer to capturing them! And what would it tell her if Vandene DID get killed, and they knew because Jaem went berserk. What then? How would that have informed them of the specifics?

Either there IS a difference in the respective abilities of the two genders to grasp tactical issues, or you're an idiot. Either for not seeing a glaringly obvious scenario, or for posting about stuff you have not bothered to give a second's thought to.

And to be honest, when Elayne herself makes more than a few comments about her own "omni-potency," it's not all that odd that readers will treat her as though she acted that way.
Actually she said that there was nothing else they could have done. Elayne is her own harshest critic, as Nynaeve notes more than once, so if SHE says she couldn't have done any better, she really couldn't.

She not only claims that she will be fine because of Min's viewing, she also doesn't accept critiques of her plan from people who may very easily not be fine.
So sorry if she does not allow a potential Darkfriend to dissuade her from arresting the Black sisters. 8} Regarding Min's viewing, those are ironclad guarantees. This is accepted as a fact. If Min saw that she would deliver a pair of healthy and strong babies, then she will, and that is an immutable fact. Nothing fatal can happen to her, and though she is aware of the possibility of non-fatal misfortunes, like being burned out, she is absolutely right about her safety. Until she is near term, she can rest assured with perfect confidence that she WILL survive whatever comes her way. Pretending otherwise is like making preparations just in case the sun DOESN'T come up tomorrow - maybe it won't but that would entail such a drastic re-ordering of the understanding of reality that practical planning for it would be impossible. She does not act like it makes her invincible - she simply accepts the reality of the situation, and primarily uses her assurance of survival as a way of reassuring her companions who are less capable of thinking outside the box to accept such things. She uses it to evade the excessive restrictions which a group of people with completely different priorities attempt to place on her, that will impede her ability to properly do her job. She uses it to get around Aviendha's concern that she might have endangered Elayne & the pre-kids with her activation of the library ter'angreal, and even as she reassures her dimmer sister, she is mindful of the possibility that she is susceptible to being burned out, but refrains from mentioning it to spare herself (and incidentally the readers) from another round of Aviendha's ji'e'toh-inspired self-flagellations. Without the viewing to give her the self-confidence to hold back the attempted smothering by Birgitte, Dyelin & Aviendha, she might not have been able to function well enough to claim the throne. And before you start debating that as a priority next to her kids, yes, it IS a higher priority than her children's lives, or it should be, regardless of her preferences. Her children have the same duty to Andor that she and her brother have had since birth, and for the exact same reason. From the second they are born, their lives will belong to Andor as the Daughter-heir and her future First Prince of the Sword. It will be their duty to lay down their lives for Andor if the circumstances call for it, and Elayne HAS to risk their lives and hers if the situation warrants it for the good of Andor.

THAT is what being a noble is about, or should be. The fancy clothes, the wealth, the right to give orders and act superior, these are all ancillary trappings meant to enable nobles to protect their people and serve their country. As William Wallace said to a group of nobles in Braveheart: "You think the people of this country exist to provide you with possessions. I think your possessions exist to provide them with freedom..." The same goes for being an Aes Sedai. They have an obligation to protect people from supernatural threats, because they have taken upon themselves sole authority and sole power in much matters. By forbidding channelers to even train one another outside of the White Tower, they strip the world the ability to defend itself with the Power, so any threat that requires the One Power is the obligation of Aes Sedai to answer on behalf of the White Tower. To allow a threat to people that weilds the One Power unrestricted by any Oaths or morality to walk free is, or should be anathema to sister, and to allow Shadow-sworn channelers to threaten the world flies directly in the face of the stated purpose of the Green Ajah. For Elayne to let murderers to walk free in Andor is a dereliction of her duty as a noble of Andor; for her to allow them to move freely in Caemlyn is a violation of her obligations as the military authority occupying Caemlyn; to allow One Power threats to ordinary people to exist is a failure on her part as Aes Sedai; and to allow channelers who serve the Dark One to carry out their plans is against her duty as a member of the Green Ajah. Even personally, as a mother she has an obligation to protect her children, which means removing any threat to their lives which has hostile intentions towards her own. For all she knows, "Mellar" and the sister who was murdering the Kinswomen have designs on her children after their birth. No matter how you slice, Elayne's duty, and that of her Aes Sedai companions, was to get the Black sisters. Otherwise, she would be guilty of cowardice and desertion (the proper terms for someone who places safety over duty).
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Cannoli on 02/10/2009 at 08:32:47 PM
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Are women really bad generals? - 01/10/2009 07:05:03 PM 1448 Views
I think that all we can conclude from this... - 01/10/2009 07:39:49 PM 742 Views
No. - 01/10/2009 07:41:35 PM 860 Views
Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... - 01/10/2009 08:40:47 PM 962 Views
Lol... too true - 01/10/2009 09:32:29 PM 857 Views
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I still haven't seen proof of Demandred or Ishamael's "brilliance". - 01/10/2009 09:56:41 PM 699 Views
Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice - 02/10/2009 04:25:37 AM 669 Views
Re: Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice - 02/10/2009 03:48:13 PM 595 Views
but you are difficult to please - 02/10/2009 05:10:13 AM 653 Views
Re: but you are difficult to please - 02/10/2009 03:46:56 PM 589 Views
Re: but you are difficult to please - 03/10/2009 06:17:21 AM 609 Views
But they are lame... they've done minimal damage to the Light - 02/10/2009 05:06:05 AM 600 Views
You can't have it both ways.... - 02/10/2009 06:47:21 AM 680 Views
Why not? - 02/10/2009 08:45:35 AM 642 Views
Re: Why not? - 02/10/2009 04:27:00 PM 541 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 06:34:16 AM 678 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 07:40:16 AM 613 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 05:07:51 PM 584 Views
Yeah - 01/10/2009 09:57:01 PM 628 Views
Re: Yeah - 01/10/2009 10:40:28 PM 658 Views
I thought the same in the past... - 02/10/2009 07:01:18 AM 652 Views
Gah! Hate! - 02/10/2009 04:11:49 PM 658 Views
Ah, come on... - 02/10/2009 04:41:37 PM 626 Views
No no, I was just being pouty that I haven't read the new stuff yet. - 02/10/2009 05:01:15 PM 628 Views
Yeah, I can understand that! - 03/10/2009 12:23:25 PM 507 Views
Unless... - 01/10/2009 10:49:55 PM 700 Views
Re: Unless... - 02/10/2009 05:07:14 AM 729 Views
Well, it's entirely hypothetical, - 02/10/2009 06:31:32 AM 606 Views
Re: Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... - 01/10/2009 09:51:30 PM 725 Views
What about Mat and Ituralde? - 02/10/2009 04:28:49 AM 668 Views
Re: What about Mat and Ituralde? - 02/10/2009 03:52:24 PM 622 Views
Good points! Also, these "generals" haven't actually fielded any troops - 01/10/2009 11:23:40 PM 604 Views
Further... - 02/10/2009 12:14:44 AM 637 Views
But as individuals they are meant to be deadly too - 02/10/2009 05:09:21 AM 595 Views
Just one point ^_^ - 03/10/2009 12:51:50 AM 609 Views
nope - 01/10/2009 08:06:57 PM 752 Views
Re: nope - 01/10/2009 09:32:38 PM 816 Views
Tylee Kirgan, Birgitte, and one other, Egeanin - 01/10/2009 09:47:00 PM 1023 Views
Birgitte's not a soldier though. - 01/10/2009 10:10:50 PM 611 Views
She says she's not, but so does Mat. - 01/10/2009 10:34:04 PM 536 Views
Mat's not a soldier, either - he's a general - 01/10/2009 10:51:29 PM 681 Views
Right, which was what we were discussing at first. - 02/10/2009 04:13:43 PM 606 Views
Yeah, I'm supporting your point about them both being generals - 02/10/2009 06:10:31 PM 626 Views
true, but she does pretty good - 02/10/2009 01:06:03 AM 679 Views
Oooh I forgot she's in charge of Elayne's lady guards. - 02/10/2009 03:22:57 AM 552 Views
Egeanin or Leilwin - 01/10/2009 10:35:53 PM 748 Views
A ship captain is like a calvary general - 02/10/2009 01:24:37 AM 614 Views
Right. - 02/10/2009 01:36:59 AM 597 Views
Well said. (And its short and to the point.) - 02/10/2009 03:54:23 AM 734 Views
Birgitte is too cautious to be better than an adequate tactician. - 02/10/2009 04:22:45 AM 661 Views
Isn't this more of an outgrowth or her respective specialty? - 07/10/2009 08:40:46 PM 568 Views
My opinion - 02/10/2009 01:30:12 AM 1035 Views
That's a poor excuse - 02/10/2009 11:59:42 AM 562 Views
That's a poor argument - 02/10/2009 04:02:53 PM 763 Views
Re: That's a poor argument - 03/10/2009 04:26:55 AM 638 Views
I disagree - 02/10/2009 04:26:28 PM 653 Views
Re: I disagree - 02/10/2009 08:31:29 PM 851 Views
Oh, puh-lease. - 02/10/2009 09:09:30 PM 801 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 03/10/2009 04:52:37 PM 630 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 03/10/2009 08:26:27 PM 520 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 05/10/2009 05:08:27 PM 3078 Views
I always know I've out-argued an idiot when they fall back on the tired old "RJ wanted it that way" - 06/10/2009 04:42:11 AM 668 Views
um - 08/10/2009 07:36:52 PM 904 Views
Monday morning quarterbacking at its worst - 04/10/2009 07:28:36 AM 718 Views
Men and football. - 05/10/2009 04:49:35 PM 634 Views
It's the only thing men are allowed to do in Randland - 02/10/2009 03:09:19 AM 645 Views
My thoughts - 02/10/2009 03:12:46 PM 576 Views
.... - 04/10/2009 03:38:44 AM 563 Views

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