Active Users:1124 Time:22/11/2024 09:22:21 PM
That's a poor argument Cannoli Send a noteboard - 02/10/2009 04:02:53 PM
Suppose it wasn't the BA with some sort of riduculous weapon. It could easily have been a man with a knife and they would have still been unprepared.
How could they not have noticed a man with a knife, while they were holding the Power? That is much different than a weapon whose stealth capabilities it's weilder boasts of in that very room. You really need some sort of evidence that a man with a knife could have done anything at all. To assume he would have been successful as someone with an ranged energy discharge weapon is absurd.

Elayne went in effectively alone, and was forced into a situation where she and Vandene had to watch (potentially) 5 darkfriends. Some sort of scouting to make sure there was nobody else in the building would have been a good idea.
In the first place, did you READ the book? No one was in the building! Or if they were in there, they were hiding! This is not some video game where the bad guys wait in their room, insensible to people downstairs tearing the place apart looking for power-ups or hidden enemies! A Warder checked the place out and said the coast was clear. What more do you want? The only reason you think there was insufficient checking is purely hindsight. And what on earth do you mean by "effectively alone"? She had three people with her, and they had to watch (potentially) three Darkfriends who were conferring in one room. There were two Aes Sedai, and Shiane. Elayne had already ordered Hanlon/Mellar's arrest, and Jaem secured the thug before they went in. There was no one else in Shiane's cell.

Even if she couldn't have trusted the Warders and couldn't take 5 minutes to Travel to Rand and do some recruiting,
She couldn't as ANYONE who read the books would know! So why bring it up? As far as the Warders went, there were Careane's three Warders, while the good sisters had a geezer, a youth and a woman. In close combat, they'd be lucky to kill one of Careane's before they all died. I don't know what other book series you are reading where Elayne A. could have relied on help from Rand or B. could have even obtained it! She did not know where he was or what he was doing. Every word that Aviendha said about why they could not go to him at the Cleansing still applied! The situation was unchanged. She didn't know if she would be diverting him in a fight, if he might strike out before he realized it was her, or if she might spoil whatever he was up to by dropping in.

she still could have taken some of her bodyguard to watch the house. They could have dealt with most of the more likely potential threats and could have at least warned her that something was up, if only by the sound of their bodies hitting the ground.
Oh, get real! How is she supposed to identify a thump of bootsteps from a thump of a bodies hitting the ground? She already commented on how much noise they make walking earlier in the book. And if she DID hear, and DID decide to do something - what could she have done? Been zapped on the stairs going down, instead of the upper room? Under ideal conditions the guards would have given her a second or two, and not have told her anything that could have prevented the exact same outcome. She had no idea what their weapon was, or if any counter for its effect exists. How could she have stopped it?

It's a small cost compared to the possible future Queen being captured.
Your suggestions would not have changed the outcome one bit, would not have spared one life (aside from maybe Careanne's or Asne's if the takedowns had gone a little differently) that was lost that day, and only resulted in fewer bodyguards to protect the future queen. And the good guys HAVE to take risks, since they are on the short end. If they try to play it safe and conventional the whole way, they are going to lose to the superior numbers and raw power of the bad guys. Elayne had to gamble herself to get stuff done, in the same way Rand has to repeatedly risk the entire cause of the Light by going in harm's way to fight the Forsaken.

In the end, it's pointless to argue about the main characters' military abilities because they are far too young and too sheltered to have experience. Rand and Mat are the only ones who have experience, thanks to other memories, but the others are going to make mistakes. Repeatedly.
Except Elayne has not. Not only that, she took a situation where all of Birgitte's experience and her bodyguard's caution were telling them to get her back safely to the Palace, and insisted on a course of action that enabled her to win her war in one stroke. When wise old experienced Dyelin & Birgitte of the hundreds of lives were balking at her plans and preparations in the prologue to Winter's Heart, SHE turned out to have been right! Had she listened to their "experience" she would have been facing the beseigers with hardly any soldiers to contest the city. She was able to pick up on the idea of using gateways tactically, like, oh, Gareth Bryne, who's only the greatest military mind of her country.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Cannoli on 02/10/2009 at 04:03:36 PM
Reply to message
Are women really bad generals? - 01/10/2009 07:05:03 PM 1450 Views
I think that all we can conclude from this... - 01/10/2009 07:39:49 PM 744 Views
No. - 01/10/2009 07:41:35 PM 862 Views
Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... - 01/10/2009 08:40:47 PM 964 Views
Lol... too true - 01/10/2009 09:32:29 PM 859 Views
And you guys whine about the lameness of RJ's villains? - 01/10/2009 09:41:54 PM 848 Views
I still haven't seen proof of Demandred or Ishamael's "brilliance". - 01/10/2009 09:56:41 PM 700 Views
Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice - 02/10/2009 04:25:37 AM 671 Views
Re: Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice - 02/10/2009 03:48:13 PM 596 Views
but you are difficult to please - 02/10/2009 05:10:13 AM 654 Views
Re: but you are difficult to please - 02/10/2009 03:46:56 PM 591 Views
Re: but you are difficult to please - 03/10/2009 06:17:21 AM 611 Views
But they are lame... they've done minimal damage to the Light - 02/10/2009 05:06:05 AM 602 Views
You can't have it both ways.... - 02/10/2009 06:47:21 AM 682 Views
Why not? - 02/10/2009 08:45:35 AM 644 Views
Re: Why not? - 02/10/2009 04:27:00 PM 542 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 06:34:16 AM 680 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 07:40:16 AM 615 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 05:07:51 PM 586 Views
Yeah - 01/10/2009 09:57:01 PM 630 Views
Re: Yeah - 01/10/2009 10:40:28 PM 660 Views
I thought the same in the past... - 02/10/2009 07:01:18 AM 654 Views
Gah! Hate! - 02/10/2009 04:11:49 PM 660 Views
Ah, come on... - 02/10/2009 04:41:37 PM 628 Views
No no, I was just being pouty that I haven't read the new stuff yet. - 02/10/2009 05:01:15 PM 630 Views
Yeah, I can understand that! - 03/10/2009 12:23:25 PM 509 Views
Unless... - 01/10/2009 10:49:55 PM 702 Views
Re: Unless... - 02/10/2009 05:07:14 AM 731 Views
Well, it's entirely hypothetical, - 02/10/2009 06:31:32 AM 608 Views
Re: Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... - 01/10/2009 09:51:30 PM 727 Views
What about Mat and Ituralde? - 02/10/2009 04:28:49 AM 670 Views
Re: What about Mat and Ituralde? - 02/10/2009 03:52:24 PM 624 Views
Good points! Also, these "generals" haven't actually fielded any troops - 01/10/2009 11:23:40 PM 606 Views
Further... - 02/10/2009 12:14:44 AM 639 Views
But as individuals they are meant to be deadly too - 02/10/2009 05:09:21 AM 597 Views
Just one point ^_^ - 03/10/2009 12:51:50 AM 611 Views
nope - 01/10/2009 08:06:57 PM 754 Views
Re: nope - 01/10/2009 09:32:38 PM 818 Views
Tylee Kirgan, Birgitte, and one other, Egeanin - 01/10/2009 09:47:00 PM 1025 Views
Birgitte's not a soldier though. - 01/10/2009 10:10:50 PM 613 Views
She says she's not, but so does Mat. - 01/10/2009 10:34:04 PM 538 Views
Mat's not a soldier, either - he's a general - 01/10/2009 10:51:29 PM 683 Views
Right, which was what we were discussing at first. - 02/10/2009 04:13:43 PM 608 Views
Yeah, I'm supporting your point about them both being generals - 02/10/2009 06:10:31 PM 628 Views
true, but she does pretty good - 02/10/2009 01:06:03 AM 681 Views
Oooh I forgot she's in charge of Elayne's lady guards. - 02/10/2009 03:22:57 AM 554 Views
Egeanin or Leilwin - 01/10/2009 10:35:53 PM 750 Views
A ship captain is like a calvary general - 02/10/2009 01:24:37 AM 615 Views
Right. - 02/10/2009 01:36:59 AM 599 Views
Well said. (And its short and to the point.) - 02/10/2009 03:54:23 AM 736 Views
Birgitte is too cautious to be better than an adequate tactician. - 02/10/2009 04:22:45 AM 662 Views
Isn't this more of an outgrowth or her respective specialty? - 07/10/2009 08:40:46 PM 569 Views
My opinion - 02/10/2009 01:30:12 AM 1036 Views
That's a poor excuse - 02/10/2009 11:59:42 AM 563 Views
That's a poor argument - 02/10/2009 04:02:53 PM 765 Views
Re: That's a poor argument - 03/10/2009 04:26:55 AM 640 Views
I disagree - 02/10/2009 04:26:28 PM 655 Views
Re: I disagree - 02/10/2009 08:31:29 PM 852 Views
Oh, puh-lease. - 02/10/2009 09:09:30 PM 803 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 03/10/2009 04:52:37 PM 632 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 03/10/2009 08:26:27 PM 522 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 05/10/2009 05:08:27 PM 3079 Views
I always know I've out-argued an idiot when they fall back on the tired old "RJ wanted it that way" - 06/10/2009 04:42:11 AM 670 Views
um - 08/10/2009 07:36:52 PM 906 Views
Monday morning quarterbacking at its worst - 04/10/2009 07:28:36 AM 719 Views
Men and football. - 05/10/2009 04:49:35 PM 636 Views
It's the only thing men are allowed to do in Randland - 02/10/2009 03:09:19 AM 645 Views
My thoughts - 02/10/2009 03:12:46 PM 578 Views
.... - 04/10/2009 03:38:44 AM 565 Views

Reply to Message