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That's a poor argument Cannoli Send a noteboard - 02/10/2009 04:02:53 PM
Suppose it wasn't the BA with some sort of riduculous weapon. It could easily have been a man with a knife and they would have still been unprepared.
How could they not have noticed a man with a knife, while they were holding the Power? That is much different than a weapon whose stealth capabilities it's weilder boasts of in that very room. You really need some sort of evidence that a man with a knife could have done anything at all. To assume he would have been successful as someone with an ranged energy discharge weapon is absurd.

Elayne went in effectively alone, and was forced into a situation where she and Vandene had to watch (potentially) 5 darkfriends. Some sort of scouting to make sure there was nobody else in the building would have been a good idea.
In the first place, did you READ the book? No one was in the building! Or if they were in there, they were hiding! This is not some video game where the bad guys wait in their room, insensible to people downstairs tearing the place apart looking for power-ups or hidden enemies! A Warder checked the place out and said the coast was clear. What more do you want? The only reason you think there was insufficient checking is purely hindsight. And what on earth do you mean by "effectively alone"? She had three people with her, and they had to watch (potentially) three Darkfriends who were conferring in one room. There were two Aes Sedai, and Shiane. Elayne had already ordered Hanlon/Mellar's arrest, and Jaem secured the thug before they went in. There was no one else in Shiane's cell.

Even if she couldn't have trusted the Warders and couldn't take 5 minutes to Travel to Rand and do some recruiting,
She couldn't as ANYONE who read the books would know! So why bring it up? As far as the Warders went, there were Careane's three Warders, while the good sisters had a geezer, a youth and a woman. In close combat, they'd be lucky to kill one of Careane's before they all died. I don't know what other book series you are reading where Elayne A. could have relied on help from Rand or B. could have even obtained it! She did not know where he was or what he was doing. Every word that Aviendha said about why they could not go to him at the Cleansing still applied! The situation was unchanged. She didn't know if she would be diverting him in a fight, if he might strike out before he realized it was her, or if she might spoil whatever he was up to by dropping in.

she still could have taken some of her bodyguard to watch the house. They could have dealt with most of the more likely potential threats and could have at least warned her that something was up, if only by the sound of their bodies hitting the ground.
Oh, get real! How is she supposed to identify a thump of bootsteps from a thump of a bodies hitting the ground? She already commented on how much noise they make walking earlier in the book. And if she DID hear, and DID decide to do something - what could she have done? Been zapped on the stairs going down, instead of the upper room? Under ideal conditions the guards would have given her a second or two, and not have told her anything that could have prevented the exact same outcome. She had no idea what their weapon was, or if any counter for its effect exists. How could she have stopped it?

It's a small cost compared to the possible future Queen being captured.
Your suggestions would not have changed the outcome one bit, would not have spared one life (aside from maybe Careanne's or Asne's if the takedowns had gone a little differently) that was lost that day, and only resulted in fewer bodyguards to protect the future queen. And the good guys HAVE to take risks, since they are on the short end. If they try to play it safe and conventional the whole way, they are going to lose to the superior numbers and raw power of the bad guys. Elayne had to gamble herself to get stuff done, in the same way Rand has to repeatedly risk the entire cause of the Light by going in harm's way to fight the Forsaken.

In the end, it's pointless to argue about the main characters' military abilities because they are far too young and too sheltered to have experience. Rand and Mat are the only ones who have experience, thanks to other memories, but the others are going to make mistakes. Repeatedly.
Except Elayne has not. Not only that, she took a situation where all of Birgitte's experience and her bodyguard's caution were telling them to get her back safely to the Palace, and insisted on a course of action that enabled her to win her war in one stroke. When wise old experienced Dyelin & Birgitte of the hundreds of lives were balking at her plans and preparations in the prologue to Winter's Heart, SHE turned out to have been right! Had she listened to their "experience" she would have been facing the beseigers with hardly any soldiers to contest the city. She was able to pick up on the idea of using gateways tactically, like, oh, Gareth Bryne, who's only the greatest military mind of her country.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Cannoli on 02/10/2009 at 04:03:36 PM
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Are women really bad generals? - 01/10/2009 07:05:03 PM 1515 Views
I think that all we can conclude from this... - 01/10/2009 07:39:49 PM 810 Views
No. - 01/10/2009 07:41:35 PM 948 Views
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Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice - 02/10/2009 04:25:37 AM 745 Views
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But they are lame... they've done minimal damage to the Light - 02/10/2009 05:06:05 AM 674 Views
You can't have it both ways.... - 02/10/2009 06:47:21 AM 758 Views
Why not? - 02/10/2009 08:45:35 AM 719 Views
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Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 07:40:16 AM 681 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 05:07:51 PM 655 Views
Yeah - 01/10/2009 09:57:01 PM 710 Views
Re: Yeah - 01/10/2009 10:40:28 PM 743 Views
I thought the same in the past... - 02/10/2009 07:01:18 AM 721 Views
Gah! Hate! - 02/10/2009 04:11:49 PM 731 Views
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Yeah, I can understand that! - 03/10/2009 12:23:25 PM 570 Views
Unless... - 01/10/2009 10:49:55 PM 774 Views
Re: Unless... - 02/10/2009 05:07:14 AM 801 Views
Well, it's entirely hypothetical, - 02/10/2009 06:31:32 AM 684 Views
Re: Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... - 01/10/2009 09:51:30 PM 792 Views
What about Mat and Ituralde? - 02/10/2009 04:28:49 AM 749 Views
Re: What about Mat and Ituralde? - 02/10/2009 03:52:24 PM 689 Views
Good points! Also, these "generals" haven't actually fielded any troops - 01/10/2009 11:23:40 PM 677 Views
Further... - 02/10/2009 12:14:44 AM 707 Views
But as individuals they are meant to be deadly too - 02/10/2009 05:09:21 AM 667 Views
Just one point ^_^ - 03/10/2009 12:51:50 AM 694 Views
nope - 01/10/2009 08:06:57 PM 799 Views
Re: nope - 01/10/2009 09:32:38 PM 895 Views
Tylee Kirgan, Birgitte, and one other, Egeanin - 01/10/2009 09:47:00 PM 1102 Views
Birgitte's not a soldier though. - 01/10/2009 10:10:50 PM 696 Views
She says she's not, but so does Mat. - 01/10/2009 10:34:04 PM 613 Views
Mat's not a soldier, either - he's a general - 01/10/2009 10:51:29 PM 754 Views
Right, which was what we were discussing at first. - 02/10/2009 04:13:43 PM 697 Views
Yeah, I'm supporting your point about them both being generals - 02/10/2009 06:10:31 PM 706 Views
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A ship captain is like a calvary general - 02/10/2009 01:24:37 AM 684 Views
Right. - 02/10/2009 01:36:59 AM 685 Views
Well said. (And its short and to the point.) - 02/10/2009 03:54:23 AM 801 Views
Birgitte is too cautious to be better than an adequate tactician. - 02/10/2009 04:22:45 AM 731 Views
Isn't this more of an outgrowth or her respective specialty? - 07/10/2009 08:40:46 PM 655 Views
My opinion - 02/10/2009 01:30:12 AM 1098 Views
That's a poor excuse - 02/10/2009 11:59:42 AM 636 Views
That's a poor argument - 02/10/2009 04:02:53 PM 859 Views
Re: That's a poor argument - 03/10/2009 04:26:55 AM 717 Views
I disagree - 02/10/2009 04:26:28 PM 735 Views
Re: I disagree - 02/10/2009 08:31:29 PM 933 Views
Oh, puh-lease. - 02/10/2009 09:09:30 PM 881 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 03/10/2009 04:52:37 PM 701 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 03/10/2009 08:26:27 PM 593 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 05/10/2009 05:08:27 PM 3155 Views
I always know I've out-argued an idiot when they fall back on the tired old "RJ wanted it that way" - 06/10/2009 04:42:11 AM 740 Views
um - 08/10/2009 07:36:52 PM 983 Views
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