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Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective Cannoli Send a noteboard - 03/12/2013 12:39:02 PM


While I do agree about the difference in magnitude, while Nynaeve refused to give a promise she had no intention of keeping, she also wasn't put in a position where if she didn't give the promise, she wouldn't have got what she deemed necessary, whereas for Egwene if she didn't make the promises to the Wise Ones, she wouldn't have been able to learn more about the world of dreams.
While it is fair to say she should have accepted that, and decided not to find out more, once she decided she did want to find out more, there was only one way to get that information.

She could have, you know, kept her word? She was oh so scrupulous about the Three Oaths when Rand asked her to help save lives from the Shaido, whose atrocities she had witnessed first hand, but at the same time, she is living in violation of the First Oath. The justification you offer is that she wanted power, and saw that lying was the only way to gain that power at her preferred pace, so she was "forced" into the lie. Nynaeve's & Elayne's total accomplishments in T'A'R blow hers out of the water, and they figured things out through effort and practice and persistance. Without breaking any promises. They don't lie to their for their own interest in gaining power, but in order to make those same teachers more willing to support Rand. Egwene sells out Rand to ingratiate herself with people she herself lies to. Egwene can lie about her status and profession and accepting limits on their teaching, but Rand is not allowed to retain any privacy about his personal medical issues, so there's hypocrisy too.
The lie regarding Aes Sedai began as trying to shore up Rand and Moiraine's authority,
No, it began with them being put in a position where Siuan gave them no choice but to pretend, while at the same time, arranging things so they'd take all the blame. They pretended with Moiraine's pragmatic passive approval in Tear, because it was socially necessary. There was no need for her to lie to impress Amys in T'A'R.
with Elayne and Nynaeve also pretending to be Aes Sedai, which then got to the point she didn't feel comfortable telling the truth given how much time had passed with the lie. However, she did admit to it in the end, though see below with my views on the price she pays.


Not sure I entirely agree, it is potentially losing the moral high ground, but that is only internally, much of the dishonesty / potential dishonesty for Nynaeve wouldn't have been found out by the people she was dishonest to, it was only her affected, and her feeling she would lose moral high ground, and so not be able to deal with others as effectively.
Yes, that was my point. Nynaeve is good because she wants to be good. Egwene is motivated by consequences to herself, rather than objective or absolute standards of right or wrong. Terms like "sociopath" often come up in discussions of such people.
With Egwene, the issue more is that she seemed to follow the Aiel Wise Ones in her actions / thinking. The Wise Ones are the first group of people advising / aiding her that I think started strengthening her flaws.
Even in the midst of her submersion in Aiel culture, she subtly demonstrated that she didn't really get it. Look at LoC when she breaks up a street fight, demanding that the individuals involved fight fair, one book after Melaine sneers at accusations that she does not fight fair, claiming that in a fight, "rules...are for children." Egewene has learned enough through observation to predict certain reactions to particular situations or circumstances, but there is no real grasp of Aiel ways on her part. You can't blame them for her. It's like preaching individual responsibility and self-sufficiency to a warped kid, who interprets that to mean he can do whatever he wants or can get away with.
Their views tended to be do what was necessary, and pay the price for it.
Actually, it was Siuan and Moiraine, her Aes Sedai mentrices, who imparted that bit of "wisdom" to her. She used that rationalization to categorize the Aiel, even though that is not true. The Aes Sedai and Egwene focus on the first clause in that aphorism, while the Aiel focus on the latter part, that obligations must be met, not bought off when violated.
However, with Aiel, the way of paying the price was always physical,
No, it isn't.
and even if made Gai'shan, there never seemed to be any remorse on the Aiel side, if anything sometimes it was almost pride to take the punishment earned.
Egwene followed this, always happy to take the physical punishment earned, but never really showing remorse.

Because she didn't get the system. In the Three Fold Land, where life is so harsh and dangerous, you can't waste resources on people you can't rely on, and you can't afford to trust anyone who is not absolutely trustworthy. That's why upholding commitments is so important to them, and why ji'e'toh does not make allowances for excuses.

That was also the crux of the tension between the Wise Ones and Egwene immediately after her summons to Salidar, they got a hint that she wasn't playing straight with them so they confronted her to make sure she understood the importance of properly balancing obligations (i.e. to her teachers & to the Tower). She appeared to articulate it properly, which is why Sorilea was all "You see, she gets it," and then she admits her lies, proving that she never got it at all.


While her misbehaviour / current reality may be deplorable, if we accept that the reasons / origins are plausible and solid, and nothing has been done to show Egwene the error of her ways, why would we expect her to change?
But I don't, which is why I am justified in total hatred of her. A real person, you have to keep giving chances to, because he could change. Egwene can't, won't and didn't. I was right. QED.
The issue more is those around her encouraging her to keep going for more power.
Most of those people being women who channel saidar and thus have made a practice of surrendering to something they cannot fight. There is no fighting Egwene's lust for power, so most women around her roll with it.
Siuan is a good example of this, and in many ways I think Siuan has similar flaws to Egwene, the lie about the Red Ajah aiding Logain, to ensure the Salidar Aes Sedai continued to rebel because Siuan couldn't stand the lawfully elected Elaida remaining in charge being a good case in point.
The fact that Siuan thought that Egwene would make a great Amrylin, and told Egwene so, also reflects that she only encouraged Egwene's behaviour.
The other Aes Sedai tended to take a similar view, or tried to manipulate her so obviously, they couldn't help but ensure she carried on trying to strengthen her power and remove their manipulation.
In many respects, I think Egwene embodied the majority of Aes Sedai at that point, just didn't have the experience / age to be able to hide / soften it more, and is reflective of why I think the Aes Sedai as a whole were a pretty deplorable lot by the time of the Eye of the World.
Yep. Also note that the good ones had as little to do with the Tower as an institution as possible. Moiraine, Cadsuane & Nynaeve were all sisters who had to be dragged back kicking and screaming when needed for some other crisis. Like the Amyrlin's authority is being questioned, because she isn't interfering with people who are busy with trivial crap like finding or helping the indispensible individual responsible for saving the world from the Dark One. Note that this nonsense is the first thing we see Siuan doing, carping to Moiraine that her efforts to find the person who will save the world are causing political difficulties for Siuan. Then Egwene does the exact same thing to Nynaeve once she has the whole Tower under her control. Gee, I wonder where that notion came from...

Note too, that Nynaeve got the upper hand on Siuan and mistrusted her on principle, even when she was capable of accepting Siuan's advise when it was good. But she was not influenced by her and did not pattern her behavior after Siuan. Egwene, on the other hand...

It's not about who she's exposed to, it's about what lessons she chooses to learn from those people. Nynaeve is around a lot of the same people, but takes the best things instead of the worst, or wrongly understanding them.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 19/11/2013 03:28:06 AM 1604 Views
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Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 21/11/2013 06:00:44 AM 992 Views
She does perhaps get less credit than she deserves. - 19/11/2013 09:41:49 PM 1025 Views
Re: She does perhaps get less credit than she deserves. - 21/11/2013 06:14:14 AM 760 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 21/11/2013 06:08:25 PM 990 Views
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Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 02/12/2013 03:53:57 PM 944 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 03/12/2013 05:14:57 AM 812 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 03/12/2013 12:39:02 PM 895 Views
Well... - 04/12/2013 05:54:16 AM 795 Views
Okay, I can get behind that... - 06/12/2013 11:39:23 AM 790 Views
Re: Well... - 06/12/2013 06:37:50 PM 760 Views
Re: Well... - 06/12/2013 07:17:26 PM 725 Views
Go Egwene! - 22/11/2013 02:24:51 PM 814 Views
Exactly! She died as she lived; trying to wield too much power - 22/11/2013 04:05:51 PM 830 Views
Re: Go Egwene! - 23/11/2013 07:26:10 PM 779 Views
Egwene wasn't Rand's enemy in the middle books, but she obviously was bitter/jealous of him - 04/12/2013 02:47:06 PM 1048 Views
I quite enjoyed that scene - 05/12/2013 05:32:38 AM 715 Views

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