A shame, but when posting my topic, I knew it would get a reaction from yourself, so I guess I initiated this.
The problem with Egwene there is her tendency to conflate right and politic. She looks on moral issues as political and vice versa. She had a problem with him doing the right thing rather than what she perceived to be the more politically prudent thing for a leader, and then along comes Sorilea to disabuse her of that notion as well, pointing out that the Ariel won't respect him if he isn't hard on them, and Elaine says the same thing later. But she continues to be upset at his authoritarian practices.
Furthermore, she demonstrates a key ignorance of the Aiel in general, outside of the contemplative and self-aware Wise Ones, not realizing that this is a people with a vastly different and irreconcilable world view who cannot be brought around to understanding another moral code in any kind of reasonable time frame, and at the same time, believe in the necessity of swift obedience to decisive orders and situations. Little Miss Aiel Heart only sees them as temperamental and unpredictable who might resent Rand's orders and balk or rebel. For the reader there is kind of the expectation that throwing over her loyalties as she dos, to immerse herself in a group might bring about some sort of awareness or understanding of the group in question. It's a case of "lose a friend, gain an Aiel" but they get a pale imitation of an Aiel, rather than one with a modicum of understanding who might aweve as a useful bridge.
Even if Rand hasn't immersed himself as much as Egwene has superficially, he understands enough about the Aiel to anticipate problems with them in the wetlands. Egwene would be willing to write off a few treekillers as collateral damage out of fear that the Aiel might resist her authority.
More importantly, what bothers her about that scene is that she is seeing Rand growing arrogant, a problem exactly zero other people have, with women from two very different cultures seeing his demeanor as a necessity for leadership. It's these amateur and immature assessments that will guide Egwene to her resistance to Rand when on the Amyrlin Seat, after several books of behavior far worse than Rand in regards to arrogance.
I do agree with this, it is a flaw of hers, and a reflection of her own arrogance (she can't really deal with seeing Rand doing well / what is necessary).
However, I guess I'm not finding it as abrasive this time around, or enough to make me actively dislike her character.
I may be finding it easier to accept her flaws this time around
Actually, Nynaeve is very willing to listen to other people, and backs down a lot, she just ignores other people when she's certain she's right. The difference between the two is that Nynaeve is usually right in those cases, and her behavior stems from her intuitive thought process and grasp of situations or problems. Because she is so intuitive, people don't follow her idiosyncratic reasoning, and rarely believe her until it is shoved in their faces. Look at her first encounter with Setalle Anan. From an offhand comment, she instantly reasoned out the existence of the Kin, and the potential aid in their quest for the Bowl. Elaine, the logical & rational thinker didn't follow because there was not enough evidence yet. And I'll bet most readers had no idea what was going on, because it really was an inexplicable leap, that Nynaeve was able to put together based on all sorts of subconscious clues she had picked up during her tome in Enou Dar and from reading Setalle. That's where a lot of her rep comes from, her being right and acting because she can't explain or defend her position. Egwene, on the other hand, develops her certainty from an unreasonable, possibly borderline sociopathic or solipsistic, view of her supreme importance. Only the knowledge that she is the main character in a fantasy series, and understanding of narrative convention justifies many of her actions in the early books, such her presumption that she is the person of most import to the Wise Ones upon their arrival in the Waste, or her hiding Rand from the Amyrlin's party in Fal Dar.
I think Nynaeve improved alot through the series, to begin with she didn't back down / admit she was wrong, but ironically after Egwene showed her the error of her ways, feeding her that tea in the world of dreams, she began to ease up a bit, and be willing to admit error.
However, if Egwene never had someone to do this for her, is that necessarily Egwene's fault?
She didn't have to BE Amyrlin either. That nonsense about not being able to refuse a summons doesn't hold up under the slightest examination, with the immediate and obvious point that it's merely a b.s. Tower regulation, followed closely on the heels by "Who died and made this pack of cranks Sitters?"
The day after her elevation, before she could possibly have had tome to formulate an agenda or platform, she's incensed that she is not given any paper, on the presumption that she is being prevented from issuing decrees. Fulfilling assloads of prophecies doesn't give Rand the moral authority to outlaw genocide and war crimes, but a dozen and a half women she doesn't even know proclaim her pretender to an office the entire world knows she has not earned, and how DARE they think to curtail the authority of an 18 year old virgin with less than a year of formal education, whose only experience of the world beyond the novice quarters has been spent in the tents of barbarian witch doctors.
All of her early accomplishments as Amyrlin come from having super-competent help who laid all sorts of groundwork. Without Nynaeve's & Elayne's accomplishments planting the idea thoroughly in Salidar that girls like them are not entirely inept children, and their alliance with Sian & Leane not to mention the insights that gave them enough leverage to force Siuan to submit to Egwene, Egwene would have been SOL, and her "leadership" qualities would have taken her nowhere.
Agreed, however from her point of view, she believed there was no way out, and once Amrylin, genuinely believed (rightly or wrongly) that she was elected to be Amrylin, not a puppet.
She was lucky in the groundwork laid, so yes, I agree her accomplishments weren't necesarily her own, but again is that her fault?
Maybe Egwene is an old friend from the Two Rivers, but so are a bunch of novices from whom she demands public obeisance. Funny how the notion that a girl from the Two Rivers has every right to puncture a leader's swollen ego got flushed down the toilet as soon as Egwene switched positions in that scenario...
Either she is wrong as the Amyrlin, or she was wrong in FoH.
Well, I think there is a difference between simply tying the Aes Sedai to Rand, and having them swear fealty. Moiraine got herself backed in a corner somewhat to have to do so, the rebels weren't in this position as yet.
They were Aes Sedai after all, and rightly or wrongly (I think wrongly), they believe themselves to be the dominant force, and it runs counter to this to have to swear fealty to anyone, let alone a man (the Aes Sedai appeared to be among the most sexist group in the series).
Regarding puncturing someone's ego, the people around Rand were pretty careful to do it outside of public, I think it is fair for Egwene to require that people don't undermine her within public, she just didn't have anyone to do it in private.
I know what those last four words mean individually, but put together, they don't make any sense. It's like they are describing a concept beyond my ability to comprehend.
), though with flaws still, and while Rand is still my favourite character, I find myself disliking some of what he is doing, when in the past I tended to find justification for whatever he did.Sigh. My work is never done.
I do think Egwene still has major flaws, I just think now that unlike Rand, Elayne to an extent and Nynaeve, she didn't have the opposition or friends to try and counter her, show her where she was going wrong, keep her head small etc.
Without that, I think the others could have gone down a similar road, with their flaws never being corrected (while their flaws weren't the same, and so less abrasive to me).
