As mentioned in my previous post, I am currently listening to the Audiobooks for the Wheel of Time, which is giving me a different perspective, as I can't skim or skip sections as I do when reading.
While I am only on Lord of Chaos currently, with plenty more to go, my main views on Egwene and Rand based on the books were pretty well formed by this point, so I think this is a reasonable point to have a retrospective on it.
I have found that Egwene isn't as bad
One example of this is where Rand is threatening to hang any Aiel, including chieftans, if that man committed a crime against a wetlander.
I remembered this as Egwene thinking it is foolish to make such a threat, that the Aiel were the only people truly behind him and he is going to turn him against them, all the while being arrogant to boot.
Instead, having to listen to every word, I see that she actually agreed with the threat, that the Aiel should pay if committing a crime, it was just she didn't like the way he presented it, that he was arrogant in doing so. While I disagree that he was arrogant, it is a more reasonable view than I remember.
The problem with Egwene there is her tendency to conflate right and politic. She looks on moral issues as political and vice versa. She had a problem with him doing the right thing rather than what she perceived to be the more politically prudent thing for a leader, and then along comes Sorilea to disabuse her of that notion as well, pointing out that the Ariel won't respect him if he isn't hard on them, and Elaine says the same thing later. But she continues to be upset at his authoritarian practices.
Furthermore, she demonstrates a key ignorance of the Aiel in general, outside of the contemplative and self-aware Wise Ones, not realizing that this is a people with a vastly different and irreconcilable world view who cannot be brought around to understanding another moral code in any kind of reasonable time frame, and at the same time, believe in the necessity of swift obedience to decisive orders and situations. Little Miss Aiel Heart only sees them as temperamental and unpredictable who might resent Rand's orders and balk or rebel. For the reader there is kind of the expectation that throwing over her loyalties as she dos, to immerse herself in a group might bring about some sort of awareness or understanding of the group in question. It's a case of "lose a friend, gain an Aiel" but they get a pale imitation of an Aiel, rather than one with a modicum of understanding who might aweve as a useful bridge.
Even if Rand hasn't immersed himself as much as Egwene has superficially, he understands enough about the Aiel to anticipate problems with them in the wetlands. Egwene would be willing to write off a few treekillers as collateral damage out of fear that the Aiel might resist her authority.
More importantly, what bothers her about that scene is that she is seeing Rand growing arrogant, a problem exactly zero other people have, with women from two very different cultures seeing his demeanor as a necessity for leadership. It's these amateur and immature assessments that will guide Egwene to her resistance to Rand when on the Amyrlin Seat, after several books of behavior far worse than Rand in regards to arrogance.
There are other similar passages, and passages where I think my view of what happened was coloured by my view of Egwene.
Instead, now I see that, especially once leaders, Rand and Egwene have many similarities, and in some respects seem sides of the same coin, which is likely intentional.
They both can be strong leaders, quite ruthless, and both have quite large flaws - Rand with his rage especially, Egwene more with her arrogance.
I think what makes me like Rand, and dislike Egwene, as I seem to be more accepting of his rages, basically believing that he genuinely can't control this, but is trying the best he can, while I dislike arrogance (pride in one's self I can handle, arrogance I can't). Rand listens to those around him, and is willing to have his mind changed / back down if pointed out he is being foolish, but Egwene seems to believe that it is her way or the highway, and will tend to act / decide alone, and doesn't seem to back down if proven wrong (something Nynaeve seems to share as well).
Actually, Nynaeve is very willing to listen to other people, and backs down a lot, she just ignores other people when she's certain she's right. The difference between the two is that Nynaeve is usually right in those cases, and her behavior stems from her intuitive thought process and grasp of situations or problems. Because she is so intuitive, people don't follow her idiosyncratic reasoning, and rarely believe her until it is shoved in their faces. Look at her first encounter with Setalle Anan. From an offhand comment, she instantly reasoned out the existence of the Kin, and the potential aid in their quest for the Bowl. Elaine, the logical & rational thinker didn't follow because there was not enough evidence yet. And I'll bet most readers had no idea what was going on, because it really was an inexplicable leap, that Nynaeve was able to put together based on all sorts of subconscious clues she had picked up during her tome in Enou Dar and from reading Setalle. That's where a lot of her rep comes from, her being right and acting because she can't explain or defend her position. Egwene, on the other hand, develops her certainty from an unreasonable, possibly borderline sociopathic or solipsistic, view of her supreme importance. Only the knowledge that she is the main character in a fantasy series, and understanding of narrative convention justifies many of her actions in the early books, such her presumption that she is the person of most import to the Wise Ones upon their arrival in the Waste, or her hiding Rand from the Amyrlin's party in Fal Dar.
Both will make assumptions based on insufficient evidence, which is fine, but while Rand will tend to accept it is an assumption (though make some stupid decisions based on the assumption, when I would think he could take a bit more time to get more information), once an assumption is formed by Egwene, she seems to accept it as fact (like her view on the gifts Rand received from Aviendha).
I think the EotW portrays these characteristics of both reasonably well, though Rand has a lot less rage, which helped form an early opinion of liking one but not the other.
However, I think that I let this view colour my impression of future books.
I still believe that Egwene wasn't a good leader, but I think she made the best of the situation she was put into (she didn't want to be the Amrylin Seat after all, and given the alternatives, was probably as good if not the best choice anyway),
The day after her elevation, before she could possibly have had tome to formulate an agenda or platform, she's incensed that she is not given any paper, on the presumption that she is being prevented from issuing decrees. Fulfilling assloads of prophecies doesn't give Rand the moral authority to outlaw genocide and war crimes, but a dozen and a half women she doesn't even know proclaim her pretender to an office the entire world knows she has not earned, and how DARE they think to curtail the authority of an 18 year old virgin with less than a year of formal education, whose only experience of the world beyond the novice quarters has been spent in the tents of barbarian witch doctors.
All of her early accomplishments as Amyrlin come from having super-competent help who laid all sorts of groundwork. Without Nynaeve's & Elayne's accomplishments planting the idea thoroughly in Salidar that girls like them are not entirely inept children, and their alliance with Sian & Leane not to mention the insights that gave them enough leverage to force Siuan to submit to Egwene, Egwene would have been SOL, and her "leadership" qualities would have taken her nowhere.
Maybe Egwene is an old friend from the Two Rivers, but so are a bunch of novices from whom she demands public obeisance. Funny how the notion that a girl from the Two Rivers has every right to puncture a leader's swollen ego got flushed down the toilet as soon as Egwene switched positions in that scenario...
Either she is wrong as the Amyrlin, or she was wrong in FoH.
To make a long point (my apologies) short,
As well you should! What kind of person posts long things about Egwene? And what makes you think the people on this board have the patience for long, wordy writings?
), though with flaws still, and while Rand is still my favourite character, I find myself disliking some of what he is doing, when in the past I tended to find justification for whatever he did.Sigh. My work is never done.
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
