Active Users:525 Time:23/11/2024 05:33:47 PM
She does perhaps get less credit than she deserves. Legolas Send a noteboard - 19/11/2013 09:41:49 PM

I think FT got to the heart of it when noting that Rand takes more than enough flak within the books, whereas Egwene seems to be put on a pedestal by her friends and peers - but even more crucially than that, Egwene seems to be put on a pedestal by the writers, and that is what annoys so many readers. The infamous captivity scenes in the White Tower are merely the best example of many - RJ and Sanderson seem to think that they are really displaying Egwene as a kickass heroine, while tons of readers are simply increasingly disgusted, and much the opposite effect is reached of what was intended.

But for all that, she does have her courage, seemingly endless willpower and general competence in her favour, and between that and her status as complete outsider, the argument that she's the best woman for the job is not that hard to make. She'd be a terrible Amyrlin in times when subtlety and the talent of seeing different sides of an issue are required, but those aren't exactly the main job requirements for a Tarmon Gaidon Amyrlin. So the reader, much like the Aes Sedai serving under her, puts up and shuts up about her irritating flaws because her assets are of more importance just then and there.

View original postWhile I am only on Lord of Chaos currently, with plenty more to go, my main views on Egwene and Rand based on the books were pretty well formed by this point, so I think this is a reasonable point to have a retrospective on it.


View original postI have found that Egwene isn't as bad as I previously remembered, and there are certain passages where I can see how this has shifted.

That seems rather early to be making that call on Egwene - book six is only halfway in her development that will make her so loathed further down the line in books ten to twelve (in particular).


View original postInstead, having to listen to every word, I see that she actually agreed with the threat, that the Aiel should pay if committing a crime, it was just she didn't like the way he presented it, that he was arrogant in doing so. While I disagree that he was arrogant, it is a more reasonable view than I remember.

This is a case where she has an opinion on an issue that's relatively familiar ground - her opinions will still be very rigid for some people's tastes, and expressed harshly, but at least they are reasonable enough. It's her opinions on things that are not familiar ground that are more infuriating if you ask me.
View original postI think what makes me like Rand, and dislike Egwene, as I seem to be more accepting of his rages, basically believing that he genuinely can't control this, but is trying the best he can, while I dislike arrogance (pride in one's self I can handle, arrogance I can't). Rand listens to those around him, and is willing to have his mind changed / back down if pointed out he is being foolish, but Egwene seems to believe that it is her way or the highway, and will tend to act / decide alone, and doesn't seem to back down if proven wrong (something Nynaeve seems to share as well).

And yet Nynaeve is a much more sympathetic character in the end, probably because with her, the stubbornness is usually at least in large part linked to her temper, and her temper tends to flare up most when she feels insecure or afraid. Which is also why she will admit to being wrong sometimes, albeit only long afterwards, and show her softer side. Egwene's stubbornness is much more cold and (supposedly) rational. Her anger is, too, for that matter - where Nynaeve's and Rand's flares hot, hers is ice cold, most of the time. Steven Erikson (the author of the Malazan Empire books) likes to go on and on about "cold iron", a characteristic in some leaders that allows them to push onwards relentlessly and unwaveringly, and pushing or dragging their followers with them, with their eyes on the prize and nothing stopping them. And while I like Tavore or other "cold iron" Malazan characters far more than Egwene, there are certainly similarities.
View original postI think the EotW portrays these characteristics of both reasonably well, though Rand has a lot less rage, which helped form an early opinion of liking one but not the other.

Agreed.
View original postI still believe that Egwene wasn't a good leader, but I think she made the best of the situation she was put into (she didn't want to be the Amrylin Seat after all, and given the alternatives, was probably as good if not the best choice anyway), and Rand was just as bad a leader, he learnt a lot from Moiraine that helped him try and be a good leader, but his lack of control over his rage tended to lead him to undo any good work he did manage. Rand's leadership 'improved' when he basically turned it over to Darlin, Dobraine and the like, instead of ruling directly, whereas Egwene didn't have the luxury of having good people she could hand power to - I think the only two Aes Sedai that would have made better leaders are Cadsuane (though I think she still would not be a good leader), and Moiraine.

I don't think there is just one kind of good leader. In leaders, like in most things, it takes all kinds sometimes, and a good leader for one kind of task can be terrible for another kind. One could make a good case that in a largely pre-modern society like the Wheel of Time one, and doubly so in time of war and the possible end of the world approaching, one needs exactly the kind of leaders that we in our democratic free societies of today have come to dislike and suspect.
View original postTo make a long point (my apologies) short, I think I have been unduly harsh on Egwene and unduly kind on Rand in the past, and now find Egwene a character I could like (will reserve judgement until I finish all the audiobooks ), though with flaws still, and while Rand is still my favourite character, I find myself disliking some of what he is doing, when in the past I tended to find justification for whatever he did.

It's always good to find yourself re-evaluating things like that - rereads would be pretty boring if we always thought exactly the same as the first time around. And especially if so many years have passed and we've changed so much ourselves in that interim, it would be very strange if that were the case.
Reply to message
Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 19/11/2013 03:28:06 AM 1602 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 19/11/2013 06:55:35 AM 1143 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 19/11/2013 04:12:26 PM 957 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 21/11/2013 06:02:28 AM 785 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 21/11/2013 02:07:35 PM 884 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 23/11/2013 07:10:34 PM 1010 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 21/11/2013 06:00:44 AM 990 Views
She does perhaps get less credit than she deserves. - 19/11/2013 09:41:49 PM 1024 Views
Re: She does perhaps get less credit than she deserves. - 21/11/2013 06:14:14 AM 757 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 21/11/2013 06:08:25 PM 988 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 23/11/2013 07:25:44 PM 993 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 24/11/2013 04:37:34 AM 1004 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 24/11/2013 06:08:28 AM 813 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 02/12/2013 03:53:57 PM 942 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 03/12/2013 05:14:57 AM 810 Views
Re: Egwene vs Rand, a retrospective - 03/12/2013 12:39:02 PM 892 Views
Well... - 04/12/2013 05:54:16 AM 795 Views
Okay, I can get behind that... - 06/12/2013 11:39:23 AM 787 Views
Re: Well... - 06/12/2013 06:37:50 PM 758 Views
Re: Well... - 06/12/2013 07:17:26 PM 723 Views
Go Egwene! - 22/11/2013 02:24:51 PM 813 Views
Exactly! She died as she lived; trying to wield too much power - 22/11/2013 04:05:51 PM 828 Views
Re: Go Egwene! - 23/11/2013 07:26:10 PM 777 Views
Egwene wasn't Rand's enemy in the middle books, but she obviously was bitter/jealous of him - 04/12/2013 02:47:06 PM 1046 Views
I quite enjoyed that scene - 05/12/2013 05:32:38 AM 713 Views

Reply to Message