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Jordan said he put some of himself in all the ta'veren, but its clearly strongest with Perrin. Joel Send a noteboard - 15/01/2013 06:27:10 AM
Since I am convinced he modeled Perrin and Faile on himself and Harriet, perhaps he paid penance enough.

I have thought this myself on occasion. It's like - Jordan described Faile in such detail, spent books and books exploring her character...and yet he never realised what a childish, jealous, irritating character she was. Sounds like love to me :\

Which of course makes Faile an analogue for Harriet. Jordan imprinted as much as anyone on Professor Tolkien, and was surely aware that the Beren and Luthien tale (reprised with Aragorn and Arwen) was a kind of tribute to the Professors relationship with his own wife. It would have been only natural for Jordan to attempt something similar with Perrin, but Perrin and Faile, rather than inspiring a protagonist to great and noble deeds, only makes him vicious and petty.

We spent a third of the freaking series listening to Perrin channel an angst-ridden teen while she played at being a captive Machiavelli.

The Shaido captivity chapters could have been really interesting. Imagine it: they're a little group with a big secret, in a violent, dangerous environment. We could have seen characters struggling, characters breaking, maybe even a bit of Stockholm Syndrome. Perhaps the only way to escape would have been for Faile to give Rolan what he wanted, and we could have seen her deal with that choice (and its repercussions). Maybe Thereva would have puzzled Faile out and decided to use her in some really cutthroat inter-Shaido politics - the kind that could only end badly. The problem is that Jordan always gave his characters an 'honorable' solution out of every predicament. Where's the character development if they never get to make real, hard choices?

I really doubt there was ever much "there" there; apart from Therava, the Shaido do not lend themselves to complexity, and for that matter neither does Faile. There was a BIT of Stockholm Syndrome with the female captives beginning to develop some sympathy for the Brotherless they tried to seduce into freeing them (until, of course, either murdering them or stood by and watched liberators kill them.) They all struggled, and one or two of them broke, but it was never going to be Cool Hand Luke since we always knew (and so did the captives) Perrin would come for them eventually.
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Somehow, I Actually Hate Faile MORE Now Joel - 14/01/2013 12:16:05 PM 3016 Views
Faile made Perrin less interesting Isaac - 14/01/2013 01:15:22 PM 1041 Views
She paralyzed his character development even when Jordan thought she advanced it. Joel - 14/01/2013 02:38:29 PM 1139 Views
I skipped those chapters during my re-read The Doctor - 14/01/2013 10:36:11 PM 1268 Views
I do not blame you, but that practically means skipping TPoD through KoD. Joel - 15/01/2013 06:16:17 AM 970 Views
Re: She paralyzed his character development even when Jordan thought she advanced it. Zalvera - 15/01/2013 12:39:23 AM 996 Views
You just hit on probably the major structural weakness of the series with respect to characters. Tom - 15/01/2013 02:54:59 AM 996 Views
I think this is why I still enjoy Rand as a character so much IndigoAjahV2 - 15/01/2013 03:37:52 AM 952 Views
There were plenty of hard choices, but they might have been handled better. Joel - 15/01/2013 06:58:30 AM 1099 Views
Though I too have wished for them to make really hard choices... Cannoli - 15/01/2013 09:37:34 AM 1045 Views
But they DO make hard choices; they just face relatively few hard consequences. Joel - 15/01/2013 10:08:19 AM 898 Views
Rand certainly flirted with the moral Event Horizon a few times, so did some of the others Isaac - 15/01/2013 10:33:23 AM 1090 Views
Mostly it's because it's clear in RJ's eyes that doing something like the things you suggest is wron IndigoAjahV2 - 15/01/2013 12:41:03 PM 975 Views
You obviously have a much lower threshold than I do in defining "hard choices". *NM* Tom - 15/01/2013 03:47:52 PM 507 Views
We are introduced to them as they choose between abandoning home w/ a stranger v. staying to die Joel - 15/01/2013 04:46:02 PM 932 Views
Joel, I just said I disagreed with you. I didn't want to debate this series for the sake of debate. *NM* Tom - 15/01/2013 05:43:55 PM 486 Views
Also, how is choosing not to die a hard choice? Tom - 15/01/2013 05:46:46 PM 829 Views
Because they had only a strange witchs word they would die, and leaving w/ her was perilous, too. Joel - 15/01/2013 06:17:16 PM 842 Views
And a trolloc attack Tom - 16/01/2013 02:28:00 PM 843 Views
True, but there was considerable debate about who brought whom. Joel - 16/01/2013 04:41:35 PM 958 Views
Jordan said he put some of himself in all the ta'veren, but its clearly strongest with Perrin. Joel - 15/01/2013 06:27:10 AM 975 Views
I'm glad you have seen the Truth. Tom - 14/01/2013 01:35:36 PM 963 Views
It was neck and neck with her and Min for a long while, but Min finally saw past her own nose. Joel - 14/01/2013 02:09:13 PM 941 Views
I just added a sentence at the end to make the series end properly. Tom - 14/01/2013 10:47:18 PM 1032 Views
Works for me. Joel - 15/01/2013 06:13:16 AM 1972 Views
In all fairness Egwene did in fact pay homage to Bela darius_sedai - 14/01/2013 08:36:40 PM 908 Views
Bela has been there for Egwene all the time. fionwe1987 - 14/01/2013 10:16:22 PM 1126 Views
Egwene and Bela Aes_Gesserit - 15/01/2013 08:13:17 AM 878 Views
I thought Noal was riding Bela... *NM* Tom - 14/01/2013 10:47:56 PM 470 Views
I did, too, at first, but "horse"=/="pony." Joel - 15/01/2013 06:08:03 AM 852 Views
I think she fed her an apple once in TV or somewhere, too, but otherwise she ignored her. Joel - 15/01/2013 06:12:26 AM 1028 Views
Dramatic much? Bella lived a good life in TV and later in Salidar darius_sedai - 20/01/2013 12:54:15 AM 7716 Views
Actually, I never understood why people LOVE that horse so much. She is just a horse! *NM* aragornital - 15/01/2013 07:52:29 AM 532 Views
Pony. She is a pony. A loyal, goodnatured, overperforming and underappreciated pony. Joel - 15/01/2013 08:32:21 AM 991 Views
honestly a child and a horse and you think the kid should be butchered? darius_sedai - 20/01/2013 12:58:32 AM 972 Views
The whole series is based upon the love of Bela and Narg and her struggle to come to terms with his MightyYT - 16/01/2013 04:01:59 AM 777 Views
The real problem echooff - 15/01/2013 11:30:37 AM 908 Views
Faile will surely domineer someone into pulling Tams carts for him. Joel - 15/01/2013 03:04:35 PM 879 Views
The women in WoT are monsters Sidious - 15/01/2013 11:59:39 AM 1352 Views
I do not consider most of the others all that bad, just idiosyncratic. Joel - 15/01/2013 03:05:51 PM 1159 Views
Oh...I think we know :-) *NM* echooff - 16/01/2013 04:31:18 PM 565 Views
I try to give them, or rather her, the benefit of a doubt. Joel - 16/01/2013 04:48:22 PM 835 Views
Re: Tuon Zalvera - 15/01/2013 03:33:34 PM 1096 Views
I had not noticed that before, but you are right. Joel - 15/01/2013 07:45:53 PM 873 Views
I agree completely... lilltempest - 15/01/2013 05:19:40 PM 1127 Views
Not to argue, but I think RJ created a world where women had the power darius_sedai - 20/01/2013 01:17:11 AM 979 Views
Agreed ... Nynaeve and Lan are the closest thing to "Healthy" in the series darius_sedai - 20/01/2013 01:09:29 AM 823 Views
Tell me then... Nargs - 18/01/2013 09:08:08 AM 888 Views
That's a fallacious question Tom - 18/01/2013 03:21:56 PM 974 Views
Are you saying... Nargs - 18/01/2013 09:21:34 PM 895 Views
That is a pathetic answer. Tom - 19/01/2013 04:56:13 AM 831 Views
You're a pathetic ass Nargs - 19/01/2013 06:48:47 AM 875 Views
LOL - that's funny, coming from you, one of the most pathetic fanboys around here. *NM* Tom - 19/01/2013 02:32:18 PM 435 Views
Sad for you. *NM* Nargs - 19/01/2013 09:24:59 PM 460 Views
Oh, gosh, this could take a while. Joel - 18/01/2013 05:58:15 PM 924 Views
How exactly was Faile the cause for Hopper's death? Zeratul - 19/01/2013 12:31:55 AM 842 Views
Because her kidnapping was the reason Perrin led his hodge podge army to rescue her, and got trapped Joel - 19/01/2013 01:00:26 AM 757 Views
Her kidnapping... Nargs - 19/01/2013 01:32:40 AM 785 Views
I said outright I do not fault her as a character for that (only Jordan for writing it that way. ) Joel - 19/01/2013 07:35:57 PM 845 Views
No it wasn't ... The dreamspike plot would have happened even had she not been kidnapped darius_sedai - 20/01/2013 01:24:25 AM 808 Views
Exactly Zeratul - 20/01/2013 06:59:33 PM 1079 Views
Wow... Nargs - 19/01/2013 01:49:56 AM 913 Views
Culture is sometimes a reason, but never an excuse. Joel - 19/01/2013 08:04:52 PM 895 Views
Just off color Nargs - 19/01/2013 10:03:58 PM 999 Views
? Joel - 19/01/2013 10:44:28 PM 890 Views
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