Wheel of Time Messageboard: He didn't face Asmodean he chased him and wrestled him over a sa'angreal. by Onarishma

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He didn't face Asmodean he chased him and wrestled him over a sa'angreal. Onarishma Send a noteboard - 10/12/2012 11:16:18 PM

Have there been any established strengths for Logain, Narishma, and Flinn? I'm on Knife of Dreams in my re-read, and it just hit me that Narishma is described here as weaker than Merise, which surprised me...though he's not reached his potential, yet. Similarly, I'd be interested to see where Taim ranks, as well. I always thought of Logain and him as being about the same level, but is there any credence to that assumption?

(If I had to make guesses based on my current feelings, I'd rank them as such:

Narishma: 20?
Flinn: 40
Logain/Taim: 80

Does that make any sense at all?)

Theorize/correct away.

We don't know much about Narishma and Flinn. Rand sometimes says how they are becoming more powerful but he says once that no Ash'aman is close in power to him (though they are both probably not at full strength). Flinn is stronger than Gedwyn and Rochaid, both of whom think that together they could fight as strongly as Rand.

He says later that Logain and Taim are close to as strong as him, so they're both at least on 90 or higher.

I figured that they were both below the level of Aginor/Sammael, and certainly below Demandred. The reason I say this is that Rand thinks of Taim as being close to his strength in LoC, and he didn't hit his potential until the Cleansing.

The thing with Flinn, now that I think about it, is that he MUST be stronger than 40. He's in a circle with two AS at the Cleansing, (I don't remember who, exactly, but I figure they're both slightly above average for AS strength, so let's say 20 each) and with the linking penalty, their combined strengths would still have to be above 90 to give credence to Demandred's thought that their weaving is as strong as his own. So maybe Flinn's closer to a 55? Maybe his strength is part of why he's the best at Healing that we've seen yet (which we know, at least seems to be the case, since Cadsuane considers Samitsu "the best alive at Healing—at least until the appearance of Damer Flinn" (CoT 671) and Cadsuane knows Nynaeve as well).

Strength and Talent do not necessarily go together ... Damer has a very powerful Healing Talent, that doesn't make him stronger in the Power. As we saw when Siuan was stilled and healed, her Talent with Healing remained the same. Damer, however, is one of Rand's go-to channelers which lends credence to his being among the stronger men in the series ... I'd say he's a male equivalent to a Cadsuane or at the very least Moiraine/Lelaine and company (strongest AS). Again, it's speculation, but there isn't much to go on. I also think Naeff can be placed near Flinn as we know he is weaker than Nynaeve, but probably not by 1/2 as he could match her effects due to his flow affinity ... odds are he is stronger than a woman like Moiraine/Lelaine, but likely no stronger than Cadsuane or perhaps Egwene.

Narishma is likely already stronger than Merise IMO ... the quote around it makes it seem that they are at least close at the time of the comments (she wouldn't worry about it if he was considerably weaker than she is) and Narishma will likely continue to grow as he has been channeling for such a short period of time. Because of Taim's initial excitement over finding him and Rand sending him after Callandor in Tear (there was a prophesy about "he who draws it out will follow after" or some such) it has been theorized that he may end up as strong as one of the Forsaken ... total speculation, but not impossible to believe IMO.

As for Taim and Logain, I agree with Sidious on this point. They are both well within the strength range of the Forsaken males as they are both close to Rand. As for the timing of when it's noted, that is a bit hard to use as an argument since in EoTW Rand was already as strong as Aginor and in TGH he matched Ishamael, but in TFoH and LOC he's very close to Asmodean, who is likely one of the weaker male Forsaken ... this is one of the reasons I think the Forsaken are all very close in strength, Rand has been at near his maximum strength from nearly the beginning of the series and is pretty much a "special case".

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In all the early books it is likely that Rand's battles took place in TAR or someplace similar in nature. In addition to that its likely you can't burn out from a well. Regardless of Aginors greasy remains. I personally think Aginor over drew when Rand took the Eye from him and then he reached for saidin trying to fill himself. In TAR Rand wouldn't need to be as strong. I think this is the same reason most Forsaken meetings take place there.

Rand grew to nearly his maximum in that first year of the series. He was obviously as strong as the Forsaken males during these events and didn't grow in significant ways until what we saw him do at Maradon.

In TAR his will would be as effective as channeling and we have plenty of evidence that he is Dreamer/Dreamwalker naturally. The Eye was first a well of some sort and second controlling that well in the Blight/TAR could have been a matter of NEED. There is no reason to believe he was as strong as Aginor or Ishamael. In the Great Hunt. TAR again with no direct power use other than the sword of fire versus the staff of darkness. tGH sword of fire again against Be'lal and TAR again against Ishamael. Not until Asmodean did it remotely look like power against power and everything we know about Asmodean is that he was the weakest even before Lanfear's little trick.

Rand was strong enough to not burn out. it's pretty cut and dry IMO.

He did not face Be'lal in TAR that was in the real world. he faced Rahvin first in the real world ... Rahvin fled to TAR in the flesh because he needed the advantage. He fought Sammael in the real world. Asmodean in the real world. He was clearly as strong as any of them during these duels. Lanfear tells the other Forsaken that he was as strong as any of them back in TSR.

He may not have been at his 100% potential, but he was very close from a very early part of the series.

I don' believe the Blight is the real world. If you do please explain how NEED was used to find the Green Man and Rand's seeming teleportations. I contend that Aginor burned out reaching for power when Rand's need allowed him to steal it from him not by the amount of power itself. I also contend that I don't think you can burn out using a well.

Be'lal was not trying to kill him until he freed Callandor. They had a sword fight not a OP fight. And because they are men he has no way to tell how close he is to his strength, explains his caution even if Rand is still considered ignorant.

Rahvin is the first character that Rand does face strength for strength. And because they were equal at that point he retreated into TAR where he could use Rands ignorance against him since he knew Asmodean had been teaching him.

Be'lal wanted Callandor for certain, so he was toying with Rand, but it's obvious that Rand was already at Forsaken strength by this point in the books. He had raw strength, but no skill ... but Be'lal wasn't willing to really go after him on an OP basis either ... he taunted him and played mind games rather than try something like Compulsion or a torture weave etc... which makes me believe Be'lal was weary of Rands strength and potential skill which was a wild card.

I'm not going to argue your interpretations of where the real world is v. TAR ... that's 100% speculation, and there is no point discussing that or not being able to Burn Out using a Well (despite the fact that we saw it happen) ... your interpretations are yours to enjoy

]

Just as I have no proof of why exactly Aginor burned out you have no proof of what Rand's strength was when he was in the Stone. Be'lal not being sure/wary of Rand's strength is not proof he was strong. There is certainly evidence that the Blight is merged with TAR and the idea of burning out is certainly based on being able to control a flow. How can a well flow. It is saidin that has already been controlled. How can you loose control of it?

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I really hate to bring up strength in the OP, but thankfully it doesn't regard Egwene or any women. DREWRULESWOT! - 04/12/2012 06:01:45 AM 1678 Views

My thoughts Sidious - 04/12/2012 07:15:44 AM 1082 Views

90 is REALLY high DREWRULESWOT! - 04/12/2012 07:25:15 AM 1043 Views

Couple of things ... **reminder that this is a lot of speculation** darius_sedai - 04/12/2012 04:29:50 PM 998 Views

Narishma is definitely stronger, you're right. DREWRULESWOT! - 07/12/2012 03:00:53 AM 948 Views

He was stronger than Aginor in order to channel the power of the Eye darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 03:00:10 PM 905 Views

No I don't think so Sidious - 07/12/2012 04:13:48 PM 807 Views

I'd say more than 80 darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 07:07:32 PM 765 Views

81 then Sidious - 07/12/2012 08:11:34 PM 701 Views

and that's just YOUR theory Sidius

darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 09:13:42 PM 793 Views

Re: and that's just YOUR theory Sidius

Sidious - 07/12/2012 10:14:53 PM 808 Views

there were more like MILLIONS of Forsaken during these times darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 10:30:34 PM 771 Views

Re: and that's just YOUR theory Sidius

RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/12/2012 08:44:51 PM 590 Views

Aginors defeat could be a result of multiple factors. So can Ishmaels Onarishma - 07/12/2012 01:24:18 PM 826 Views

Regardless, Rand was clearly in the same strength category when Aginor and he faced off darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 03:03:04 PM 775 Views

I disagree. Onarishma - 07/12/2012 06:55:43 PM 712 Views

Aginor burned out trying to use the Eye in the real world darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 07:12:44 PM 727 Views

Re: Aginor burned out trying to use the Eye in the real world Onarishma - 07/12/2012 07:51:37 PM 719 Views

he faced Asmodean strength for strength before Rahvin darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 09:23:42 PM 807 Views

Just to be a bitch Sidious - 07/12/2012 10:17:11 PM 658 Views

you don't actually have to tell us all you are a bitch

darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 10:36:25 PM 830 Views

*NM* Sidious - 08/12/2012 06:22:49 AM 671 Views

He didn't face Asmodean he chased him and wrestled him over a sa'angreal. Onarishma - 10/12/2012 11:16:18 PM 846 Views

Asmo hurled plenty of stuff at Rand during the "Chase" it wasnt all that much different darius_sedai - 11/12/2012 03:16:36 AM 723 Views

I disagree with your plenty cause no one was TRYING to crush him. *NM* Onarishma - 11/12/2012 07:13:12 PM 468 Views

as I said before ... your interpretations are yours to have ... as are mine. *NM* darius_sedai - 11/12/2012 09:16:36 PM 385 Views

think youre misjudgjng the benefits of the link. they dont have to add up to 90. Onarishma - 07/12/2012 12:34:59 PM 771 Views

There is also no why to tell if Flinn hit Demandred with all the strength available to him either darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 03:05:38 PM 773 Views

the "circle" was stronger but the individuals weren't *NM* Onarishma - 07/12/2012 06:58:38 PM 506 Views

that's what I just said *NM* darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 07:23:34 PM 428 Views

that was not clear *NM* Onarishma - 07/12/2012 07:43:54 PM 520 Views

*shrug* darius_sedai - 07/12/2012 09:25:00 PM 667 Views

Re: *shrug* Onarishma - 10/12/2012 11:27:42 PM 769 Views

If I had said the individuals in the circle added to Dmandreds strength perhaps darius_sedai - 11/12/2012 03:28:23 AM 806 Views

in the context of this discussion you did not distinguish between the effective strength and Onarishma - 11/12/2012 07:10:48 PM 713 Views

whatever ... didn't think it was necessary ... and with that I'm done darius_sedai - 11/12/2012 09:16:03 PM 689 Views

Onarishma - 17/12/2012 11:22:55 PM 959 Views

About Rand's strength... an important quote is being ignored: fionwe1987 - 08/12/2012 12:37:38 AM 902 Views

Perhaps darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 01:01:21 AM 742 Views

Re: Perhaps fionwe1987 - 08/12/2012 02:06:39 AM 801 Views

Like I said ... Could be darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 02:33:43 AM 789 Views

I disagree... fionwe1987 - 08/12/2012 04:53:09 AM 716 Views

Re: I disagree... darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 05:20:08 AM 667 Views

I disagree again! fionwe1987 - 08/12/2012 05:49:15 AM 748 Views

Probably darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 02:46:15 PM 775 Views

Re: Probably fionwe1987 - 09/12/2012 07:51:59 PM 772 Views

Not really darius_sedai - 09/12/2012 10:13:07 PM 690 Views

Re: Not really fionwe1987 - 10/12/2012 01:05:54 AM 702 Views

Re: Not really darius_sedai - 13/12/2012 03:58:48 PM 798 Views

I don't think the Forsaken are good examples Sidious - 08/12/2012 06:18:45 AM 767 Views

We're essentially saying the same thing now darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 02:37:17 PM 686 Views

Re: I don't think the Forsaken are good examples RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/12/2012 08:08:21 PM 663 Views

Always thought the forsaken didn't really know much about Rand TheCrownless - 08/12/2012 02:38:08 AM 723 Views

And they had plenty of spies around him and clearly knew that he managed darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 02:43:15 AM 740 Views

Re: And they had plenty of spies around him and clearly knew that he managed TheCrownless - 08/12/2012 05:34:54 AM 722 Views

Who can say. Graendal wraps them so deep in compulsion that she can dig darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 05:42:39 AM 777 Views

I don't think they could have had a clear idea of his strength eary in the series... Narg - 08/12/2012 09:34:36 AM 878 Views

Re: I don't think they could have had a clear idea of his strength eary in the series... darius_sedai - 08/12/2012 02:54:08 PM 700 Views

Oops, double post. *NM* Narg - 08/12/2012 09:34:36 AM 510 Views

Re: About Rand's strength... an important quote is being ignored: Dunstan - 11/12/2012 11:36:51 PM 749 Views

Re: Rand v Aginor Watcher - 16/12/2012 01:46:08 PM 719 Views

Not a bad theory and I've read it before darius_sedai - 16/12/2012 07:42:31 PM 675 Views

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<quote id="268431"><quote id="268294"><quote id="268287"><quote id="268280"><quote id="268275"><quote id="268259"><quote id="268257"><quote id="267978"><quote id="267972"><quote id="267970"><quote id="267966">Have there been any established strengths for Logain, Narishma, and Flinn? I'm on Knife of Dreams in my re-read, and it just hit me that Narishma is described here as weaker than Merise, which surprised me...though he's not reached his potential, yet. Similarly, I'd be interested to see where Taim ranks, as well. I always thought of Logain and him as being about the same level, but is there any credence to that assumption?</quote>

<quote id="268431">(If I had to make guesses based on my current feelings, I'd rank them as such:</quote>

<quote id="268431">Narishma: 20?</quote>

<quote id="268431">Flinn: 40</quote>

<quote id="268431">Logain/Taim: 80</quote>

<quote id="268431">Does that make any sense at all?)</quote>

<quote id="268431">Theorize/correct away.</quote></quote>

<quote id="268431">We don't know much about Narishma and Flinn. Rand sometimes says how they are becoming more powerful but he says once that no Ash'aman is close in power to him (though they are both probably not at full strength). Flinn is stronger than Gedwyn and Rochaid, both of whom think that together they could fight as strongly as Rand.</quote>

<quote id="268431">He says later that Logain and Taim are close to as strong as him, so they're both at least on 90 or higher.</quote></quote>

<quote id="268431">I figured that they were both below the level of Aginor/Sammael, and certainly below Demandred. The reason I say this is that Rand thinks of Taim as being close to his strength in LoC, and he didn't hit his potential until the Cleansing.</quote>

<quote id="268431">The thing with Flinn, now that I think about it, is that he MUST be stronger than 40. He's in a circle with two AS at the Cleansing, (I don't remember who, exactly, but I figure they're both slightly above average for AS strength, so let's say 20 each) and with the linking penalty, their combined strengths would still have to be above 90 to give credence to Demandred's thought that their weaving is as strong as his own. So maybe Flinn's closer to a 55? Maybe his strength is part of why he's the best at Healing that we've seen yet (which we know, at least seems to be the case, since Cadsuane considers Samitsu "the best alive at Healing—at least until the appearance of Damer Flinn" (CoT 671) and Cadsuane knows Nynaeve as well).</quote></quote>

<quote id="268431">Strength and Talent do not necessarily go together ... Damer has a very powerful Healing Talent, that doesn't make him stronger in the Power.  As we saw when Siuan was stilled and healed, her Talent with Healing remained the same.  Damer, however, is one of Rand's go-to channelers which lends credence to his being among the stronger men in the series ... I'd say he's a male equivalent to a Cadsuane or at the very least Moiraine/Lelaine and company (strongest AS).  Again, it's speculation, but there isn't much to go on.  I also think Naeff can be placed near Flinn as we know he is weaker than Nynaeve, but probably not by 1/2 as he could match her effects due to his flow affinity ... odds are he is stronger than a woman like Moiraine/Lelaine, but likely no stronger than Cadsuane or perhaps Egwene.</quote>

<quote id="268431">Narishma is likely already stronger than Merise IMO ... the quote around it makes it seem that they are at least close at the time of the comments (she wouldn't worry about it if he was considerably weaker than she is) and Narishma will likely continue to grow as he has been channeling for such a short period of time.  Because of Taim's initial excitement over finding him and Rand sending him after Callandor in Tear (there was a prophesy about "he who draws it out will follow after" or some such) it has been theorized that he may end up as strong as one of the Forsaken ... total speculation, but not impossible to believe IMO.</quote>

<quote id="268431">As for Taim and Logain, I agree with Sidious on this point.  They are both well within the strength range of the Forsaken males as they are both close to Rand.  As for the timing of when it's noted, that is a bit hard to use as an argument since in EoTW Rand was already as strong as Aginor and in TGH he matched Ishamael, but in TFoH and LOC he's very close to Asmodean, who is likely one of the weaker male Forsaken ... this is one of the reasons I think the Forsaken are all very close in strength, Rand has been at near his maximum strength from nearly the beginning of the series and is pretty much a "special case".</quote></quote>

<quote id="268431">In all the early books it is likely that Rand's battles took place in TAR or someplace similar in nature.  In addition to that its likely you can't burn out from a well.  Regardless of Aginors greasy remains. I personally think Aginor over drew when Rand took the Eye from him and then he reached for saidin trying to fill himself.   In TAR Rand wouldn't need to be as strong.  I think this is the same reason most Forsaken meetings take place there.</quote>

<quote id="268431">Rand grew to nearly his maximum in that first year of the series.  He was obviously as strong as the Forsaken males during these events and didn't grow in significant ways until what we saw him do at Maradon.</quote></quote>

<quote id="268431">In TAR his will would be as effective as channeling and we have plenty of evidence that he is Dreamer/Dreamwalker naturally.  The Eye was first a well of some sort and second controlling that well in the Blight/TAR could have been a matter of NEED.  There is no reason to believe he was as strong as Aginor or Ishamael.  In the Great Hunt.  TAR again with no direct power use other than the sword of fire versus the staff of darkness.  tGH sword of fire again against Be'lal and TAR again against Ishamael.  Not until Asmodean did it remotely look like power against power and everything we know about Asmodean is that he was the weakest even before Lanfear's little trick.</quote></quote>

<quote id="268431">Rand was strong enough to not burn out.  it's pretty cut and dry IMO.</quote>

<quote id="268431">He did not face Be'lal in TAR that was in the real world.  he faced Rahvin first in the real world ... Rahvin fled to TAR in the flesh because he needed the advantage.  He fought Sammael in the real world. Asmodean in the real world.  He was clearly as strong as any of them during these duels.  Lanfear tells the other Forsaken that he was as strong as any of them back in TSR.  </quote>

<quote id="268431">He may not have been at his 100% potential, but he was very close from a very early part of the series.</quote></quote>

<quote id="268431">I don' believe the Blight is the real world.  If you do please explain how NEED was used to find the Green Man and Rand's seeming teleportations.  I contend that Aginor burned out reaching for power when Rand's need allowed him to steal it from him not by the amount of power itself.  I also contend that I don't think you can burn out using a well.</quote>

<quote id="268431">Be'lal was not trying to kill him until he freed Callandor.  They had a sword fight not a OP fight.  And because they are men he has no way to tell how close he is to his strength, explains his caution even if Rand is still considered ignorant.</quote>

<quote id="268431">Rahvin is the first character that Rand does face strength for strength.  And because they were equal at that point he retreated into TAR where he could use Rands ignorance against him since he knew Asmodean had been teaching him.</quote></quote>

<quote id="268431">Be'lal wanted Callandor for certain, so he was toying with Rand, but it's obvious that Rand was already at Forsaken strength by this point in the books.  He had raw strength, but no skill ... but Be'lal wasn't willing to really go after him on an OP basis either ... he taunted him and played mind games rather than try something like Compulsion or a torture weave etc... which makes me believe Be'lal was weary of Rands strength and potential skill which was a wild card.  </quote>

<quote id="268431">I'm not going to argue your interpretations of where the real world is v. TAR ... that's 100% speculation, and there is no point discussing that or not being able to Burn Out using a Well (despite the fact that we saw it happen) ... your interpretations are yours to enjoy :)</quote>]</quote>

<quote id="268431">Just as I have no proof of why exactly Aginor burned out you have no proof of what Rand's strength was when he was in the Stone. Be'lal not being sure/wary of Rand's strength is not proof he was strong.  There is certainly evidence that the Blight is merged with TAR and the idea of burning out is certainly based on being able to control a flow.  How can a well flow.  It is saidin that has already been controlled.  How can you loose control of it?</quote>

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