Re: I think you may be trying to hard to satisfy all of the various Dreams, Visions etc...
DomA Send a noteboard - 11/11/2012 08:37:36 PM
IMO Fain is a huge waste of a character at this point. Hopefully RJ has a purpose for keeping him alive all this time ... he's really served almost no purpose since he attacked the TR.
Really? The TR episode is nothing compared to his importance as a plot device later on... Fain provided the SL taint wound in Rand's side that let Rand understand how he could cleanse saidin (in combination with the riddle of the Aelfinn RJ never gave us), serving beside to put in motion the idea of bonding Asha'man.
He also provided a malignant foe interfering with both Rand's plans and the Shadows' plans in Far Madding.
Fain is also important thematically. He's the epitome of the Light embracing the Shadow. His way to fight the Shadow is as destructive to the Pattern as the Shadow itself.
It's a thematic "barometer" to Rand's fall in darkness, which was similarly tainted by a growing hatred of the Shadow, a growing desire to destroy it rather then reestablish the balance in the Pattern. It wasn't exploited all that well by Brandon, but it was still there.
A Gollum role is somewhat unlikely, because neither Fain/Mordeth has a trace of Smeagol in him. Both are purely malevolent, and while Fain himself is in some way similar to Gollum in that it's a pawn of the Shadow that turned against it, Mordeth is completely different, a champion of the Light who dabbed in matters the Light can't touch, and would destroy both Light and Shadow (it may not have occured to you, but not only Shai'tan can win a "final victory". The Light also can, but such a victory is achieved by emulating the Shadow completely. Creation would still go on, but it would be turned completely to death, like Shadar Logoth. This power can't co-exist with Shai'tan, he wouldn't be able anymore to enter the Pattern and unravel it, it would cause Shai'tan's own destruction).
Ultimately, the Shadow made Fain hate Rand, the Light's salvation, with a passion, and Mordeth hates the Shadow so viscerally he sacrifices the Light to destroy it. Bottom line: Fain is as dangerous to the Shadow as it is to the Light.
Rand has already found a way to turn this evil against the Shadow, with the Cleansing. It's possible, but I find it no all that likely, the Light will use it again that way for the endgame. I think it's more the threat Fain/Mordeth represent to both sides that will be exploited this time.
I suspect it will turn out the Shadow will fail to neutralize Fain, and it will be up to the Light to succeed.
If the Cleansing is a clue, there should be another force capable of neutralizing Fain's evil, and it would be something arising from the other extreme, the Way of the Leaf.
so far I don't see the rationale for having a 3rd side in the Light v. Dark conflict.
It's not a third side for real, it's the extremely corrupted Light twisted by the Shadow and the Shadow twisted by the extremely corrupted Light.
I meant why would RJ have dismissed the flaw so casually as a manufacturing issue
There's nothing very mysterious there. People had these theories that the flaw was intentional or the result of interference by the Shadow, RJ's answer simply stopped people going on a wholly sterile path. He said nothing of the importance of the flaw, simply stopped wild theorizing about its origins.
It's not the sole sterile avenue of theorizing he blocked the same way. On some things he intended to mislead us, he loved to let us stew, but it happened quite a few times that when fans were erring in directions that RJ didn't intended as misdirections, he set us straight. Examples of this included putting an end to the Gaidal/Olver stuff (his answer sounded much like the more polite version of : enough with that already and start paying attention to the character build up which is important, the Gaidal connection was a red herring meant to last five minutes until you figured out on your own Olver is way too old. It was there not to mislead but for Birgitte's character development, to show us she missed Gaidal). He put and end to Taimandred when it became so prevalent it might have seemed to RJ few were paying attention anymore to the stuff he wanted us to pay attention to re: Taim, and missing the real clues about Demandred... He seemed exasperated at some point that we still missed the clues, or were looking in totally wrong directions for Demandred and gave us the "look guys, you've never seem him using his alter ego as per KOD, but I told you it can be puzzled out, now I've narrowed it down for you dummies, look again). He's done the same for world building concepts as well, correcting misconceptions, from OP aspects to cosmology matters to thematic elements (eg: he put an end, or tried to put an end to the whole "the Shadow's touch on the Pattern is making people do evil things" theories by volunteering the information that those who are trying to excuse Mierin theorizing she turned evil because of the DO's influence when she created the Bore were completely wrong, that she was ripe for the Shadow's plucking even before the Bore. RJ wanted us to stop excusing his villains' choices and personality flaws by invoking the DO's influence. :d You (I think it was you) sort of went there again recently, btw, pondering if the decline of the AOL was the result of the Bore. Nope, the Collapse occured because more and more people were secretely becoming Chosen/FotD and giving in to baser instincts/emotions/choices in accordance to their new beliefs. Alllegiance to Shai'tan was an enabler, it didn,t create the personality flaws already there. The rigidity of the AOL kept most of those people in line previously. Not all. Semirhage was already committing atrocities, and Graendal had already turned herself into a caricature of what she hated in AOL society before she went to Shai'tan.)
I proposed a theory a few years back (pre-TGS) that the flaw would play a role in the LB and everyone seemed to think I was wrong because RJ had downplayed it in one of his various quotes.
You probably should have held to it . Callandor's not the only thing we've pushed aside only to find out RJ pulled a fast one on us and hid its real relevance... TDR/TSR were the books in which RJ introduced very meaningful objects he managed to disguise the relevance of: Perrin's hammer (he got us lost into theories what counted was for Perrin to switch from the axe to the hammer, no one figured out it was because Perrin simply had to use the hammer to forge something); Mat's Ashan'darei, Callandor. I suspect we perhaps don't understand Egwene's ring may also be in some way important (to enter TAR where presumably she can't enter it on her own? In TDR in TAR we saw Perrin in a location (most likely a room in the reflection of Moridin's Blight fortress) that surprised Lanfear a lot, it suggest wolbrothers/wolves might be able to enter zones in TAR others cannot).
It does seem like a strange thing for him to point out only to have it later turn out to be another thing the Pattern arranged for ... why not simply RAFO it?
Well, obviously because we tended to interpret the RAFOs to mean it was of some importance, and in this case wondering about the nature/implications of the flaws long before he wanted us to pay attention to that. It worked, the whole thing came up as a complete surprise rather than a "Ha, ah! Here comes the stuff RJ rafoed about the flaw. We knew Callandor was important".
And someone brought up the possibilities about that the Callandor verse about "who pulls it out shall follow after" is misinterpreted, and with the viewing of a hand seizing Callandor, this theory certainly has some merit as food for thought... there's a second viewing of a duel between a blade of shadow and a blade of light. The blade of shadow could be what becomes Callandor once SH seized it, Justice the blade of Light. Once he's dead in TAR, Justice would have whatever power Rand wills it to have...
I don't mind RAFOs, but I really hate being misled.
Not really misled, not by RJ anyway. He simply told us to stop looking into overly complex theories about how the flaw came to be. In fact he merely clarified what Cadsuane already said about it. He also put us back on the right track as to how we should interpret events with Callandor from the previous book (TPOD). After WH, we should also have understood that Cadsuane wasn't trying to misled Rand, not about stuff like that anyway.
In your description it feels like a huge team effort, which is possible, but I tend to think there will be a 1 on 1 face off at some point for Rand/ST.
Which is what I have happen between Rand-in-death facing Shai'tan directly, but it's all right if you don't like it. It splits opinions wherever I've mentionned it. Some think it makes a lot of sense the direct confrontation happens as Rand is dead, others are very attached to the notion Rand will do everything from start to finish.
I've always thought people ascribed too much power to them.
Except Eelfinn appearing and disappearing from shadows, not merely hiding in them is something Mat witnesses first hand in the rescue scenes, and the Myrddraal-like way the Aelfinn move in combat is there too (and in scenes written by RJ). And Mat distinctly wonders since they can obviously work with the OP (he's thinking of his medallion, most likely) why they don't use weaves on him.
This is most likely the exit scene of the Aelfinn/Eelfinn in the series, and I actually would find it very RJ-like if he left in there clues to solve some mysteries he didn't intend to give a real final answer to, like the real nature of Myrrdraal. To give us something to puzzle out a mystery not solved by Aginor is just like him.
Another thing he managed to include in there were some Finns calling themselves "the most ancient".
I think you're one of those who never liked those ideas, but I think it even more likely than before the Eelfinn and Aelfinn are the makers of the Portal Stones since TOM. Their way to make portals is shapes/symbols based. There's the same light as OP made portals we've seen, but no channeling. The symbols on the PS are triangles, wavy lines, odd rectangles, circles and arrows. We know the Finns can visit the "Mirror Worlds" because RJ made a perhaps unintentional slip about this in one answer about the limits to their powers. In the TOM scenes, Noal did try to use a Portal that let him pass but rejected him and brought him back. It was again oddly shaped but differently than the two portals to the human worlds. I'm not sure why you still seem adamant it's not the Finns who made those Portals, when it's fairly obvious they can make "ter'angreal". They also used Moraine's angreal in some way. They used it to draw more OP from her, and they knew not only it's exact strength, but that it was so powerful it was almost a san'angreal. They also obviously know and can sense the OP... they're drawn to it.
They just don't channel it. They are other ways to use it in their world, that's all.
And this is all new stuff, not shown in previous scenes with the Finns. I'm
why would a race that has no ability with the OP even try?
Mat believes they have an ability with the OP, wondered why they didn't channel.
Why would they be interested in ter'angreal? Because that may be the way for them to use the OP in their world, instead of channeling it directly, they draw on it through incredibly complex matrixes made in strange materials that don't exist naturally in the human world. Don't forget, ter'angreal in the human world are made of matters that do not exist naturally - they are transformed with the OP into "otherworldly matter" that wouldn't exist otherwise in this world, and like Finn-technology they are often of very bizarre/odd shapes.
Aes Sedai may have learned to make ter'angreal from the people in Sindhol who were making objects to be able to use the OP, and to focus it to get larger amounts.
I see no reason why this wouldn't be possible. We're probably about to get a few revelations from LTT's memories about the Eelfinn and Aelfinn anyway, when he's reunited with Moiraine.
I also think the "merging" of the Ogier and human worlds has something to do with the Portal Stones (as in: when the Ogier "translate" with the Book of Translation, the ToG and the PS might also vanish from the human world).
What I like most about a link between *'angreal and Sindhol is the priceless scene it would give us if LTT is to reveal that's how Aes Sedai began to make ter'angreal, by copying some they got as gifts from Sindhol, puzzling out how they could make those with channelling as the ones given by Finns came at a high price... I could imagine Mat and Birgitte's faces if Elayne learned this. It would make an hilarious epilogue moment, you've got to admit
And we can suspect that there's already two ways to use the One Power, one being channelling, mental/spirit based, and Singing, Ogier and Aiel, which is sound-based. It doesn't seem farfetched there's another way which is visual: based on symbols/shapes/materials and matrixes.
I'd say trying, instead of channelling on them, to trace the symbols on the PS with an object of a compatible alloy (bronze, or the otherworldly metal, likely originally bronze, the Ashan'darei is made of) might be worth a try...
I figure I have one last chance to get out my underlying assumption on the series
08/11/2012 12:32:46 AM
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The other way around, I believe.
08/11/2012 01:43:00 AM
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Interesting, a few questions.....
08/11/2012 05:25:48 AM
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Everything about the Blight the sealing and the nature of the Dark One indicates TAR
08/11/2012 06:44:14 PM
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I'm not so sure about a few things
08/11/2012 05:28:18 PM
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Re: I'm not so sure about a few things
08/11/2012 09:38:21 PM
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I think you may be trying to hard to satisfy all of the various Dreams, Visions etc...
10/11/2012 12:41:03 AM
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Re: I think you may be trying to hard to satisfy all of the various Dreams, Visions etc...
10/11/2012 06:54:44 PM
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I don't think the Finn theory is likely
11/11/2012 08:14:59 AM
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Re: I don't think the Finn theory is likely
11/11/2012 06:18:01 PM
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Re: I don't think the Finn theory is likely
12/11/2012 05:48:20 PM
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Moiraine and Lanfear
12/11/2012 06:06:11 PM
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Re: Moiraine and Lanfear
12/11/2012 06:45:22 PM
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Re: Moiraine and Lanfear
12/11/2012 11:45:40 PM
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Re: Moiraine and Lanfear
16/11/2012 12:11:28 AM
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I don't think so
16/11/2012 01:22:55 AM
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dang it, somehow a bunch of my message vanished
16/11/2012 03:36:00 AM
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Re: dang it, somehow a bunch of my message vanished
16/11/2012 05:25:29 PM
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Re: I don't think the Finn theory is likely
12/11/2012 08:26:20 PM
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Re: I think you may be trying to hard to satisfy all of the various Dreams, Visions etc...
11/11/2012 05:58:47 PM
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Re: I think you may be trying to hard to satisfy all of the various Dreams, Visions etc...
11/11/2012 08:37:36 PM
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I always thought fades were just channelers and they used the TP instead of the OP
15/11/2012 06:29:55 PM
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Re: I always thought fades were just channelers and they used the TP instead of the OP
16/11/2012 12:20:17 AM
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Think of it as them being learners not sparkers. Or maybe wilders.
18/11/2012 07:29:17 PM
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Re: Think of it as them being learners not sparkers. Or maybe wilders.
18/11/2012 10:40:49 PM
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No DO ok is a good explanation of that
19/11/2012 09:07:27 PM
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Re: No DO ok is a good explanation of that
20/11/2012 01:32:49 PM
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The Blight is an example of compressed reality
20/11/2012 08:46:10 PM
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Re: The Blight is an example of compressed reality
20/11/2012 09:56:13 PM
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Re: The Blight is an example of compressed reality
23/11/2012 08:57:10 PM
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Re: The Blight is an example of compressed reality
23/11/2012 11:38:55 PM
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I think as a channeler she had a legitimate sense of the folding.
26/11/2012 10:31:26 PM
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