You misquote on a regular basis and have no grasp of the timeline in the series
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 04/11/2012 01:36:37 AM
which consistently leads you to miss that there are "current" strength quotes and "potential" strength comments. Certainly there are quotes that make Elayne seem much weaker than Nynaeve, but when you look at the timeline and related quotes about her current level you can clearly see how skewed this viewpoint is.
You have an excellent grasp of the broad series, but lacking the ability to quote the series correctly and missing the concept that there are 2 years of chronology that are weighted heavily toward the first 5 books you consistently bring in quotes from TSR or TFoH that speak of a character's CURRENT strength and seem to think that because there was 10 years in real world time that there was a long time between the timelines of the books. Nynaeve for instance, faced Moghedien before she reached her full potential. However, she had been actively Channeling (block or no) for well over a year at that point in the series ... given that she was already as strong as Siuan/Moiraine in EoTW without ever Channeling with her own knowledge and then being Forced for a year it follows that she would have gained in the ballpark of 85-90% of her maximum potential in the year+ related to the Tower.
We hear from Moiraine in New Spring that she gained strength at a pretty steady pace for 6 years, and was clearly well more than 2/3 of her Potential when she gained the Shawl (based on various women she thinks should defer to her), but that it would take several more years for her to attain her full strength. It seems obvious that women gain the greater part of their strength while training and being Forced to at least a tiny degree ... meaning active training is inherently Forcing compared to no training at all ... Nynaeve slowly gained strength as a Wilder for about 10 years prior to the series, then she started getting active training, which was far more Forceful than the typical Accepted as she had skipped her Novice training and the AS were all stunned by her potential. She is further Forced by her time fighting the Seanchan, and thus had gained the bulk of her strength by the time she faced Moghedien. Now in the few months between her Moghedien fight and meeting Alivia she probably gained a little more strength, but she has not been Forced abnormally in this time and her strength attainment would have slowed considerably. Then she heads to the Cleansing and in all likelihood was pushed to her full potential.
Egwene's story isn't much different, she was about normal for a Novice (in terms of how strong she was) when she left the Tower with Liandrin. Then was Forced in the extreme by the Seanchan and was pushed to Moiraine's strength by the end of TDR. As we see in TSR she is slightly stronger than Moiraine. A few months later she is still being Forced by the much more progressive training methods of the WO and competing with Aviendha and has gained the bulk of her strength, but once she hits the AS camp she would have slowed her strength attainment significantly. Once captured and in the Tower she is obviously Forced for a couple of months despite the forkroot. By TGS/ToM she is likely at full potential.
Elayne, however, does not have such Forcing. She is treated much more conservatively as DH in her early stages in the Tower, and Nynaeve does what she can to hold her back while on Toman Head. By the beginning of TSR Elayne is nowhere close to Egwene in strength, as evidenced by the fact that at the end of TSR Elayne is still much weaker than Moiraine (she is surprised that she can lift a single woman with Air, while Moiraine can lift 3x her body weight). Elayne's primary strength attainment takes place on the road from Tanchico to Salidar. By the time she gets there in TFoH she is around Moiraine level (she notes that she can lift a cauldron that "most" full Sisters could not have moved) ... she is likely a little weaker than Moiraine at this stage. By the time she leaves Ebou Dar she is clearly stronger than any AS except for Cadsuane and she and Aviendha are about equal as they each participate in the BoTW circle. It's very possible that she has stronger potential than Tamela and Viendre who she comments on while well shy of her own full potential. No way to know on that one. Once she is pregnant her strength attainment would be more akin to what Nynaeve experienced while blocked, but she is also not being Forced at this point so she is not gaining strength rapidly and is likely no more than 75% of her potential. Which squares with the general level you and Sidious place her at (roughly 60), but she has a long way to grow still as we see in ToM when she is observing Egwene's Wards and is clearly impressed with the Skill if nothing else.
Rand, however, is a special case as he seems to be as strong as the Forsaken from nearly the very beginning. I think he's reverted back to this uncanny strength since his epiphany on DM ... he is now nearly limitless it seems and may well have been back in tEoTW before Ishamael began corrupting him. Rand seems to have gained only marginal amounts of strength since then as he faced and defeated Ishamael, Be'lal, Asmodean, Rahvin and Sammael. He was even Forced by Asmodean to a degree but never seems to be much less than maximum channeling strength. I think this is due to the corruption attempts Ishamael laid out. Otherwise The Dragon Reborn may well have been limitless throughout the series and thus would have been able to destroy the Forsaken with ease.
Now, why is this general timeline important? Because we have to factor in the current level of strength of these women when certain events take place. Naturally Elayne thinks how strong Rand is in the TSR, she and Egwene combined are not even half of her own full potential! She would have expected Rand's strength to be like her's and be at less than full potential. She is quickly disabused of this when he turns out to be as Strong as a Forsaken level Channeler already. Remember Elayne and Egwene were not witness to most of his moments facing Forsaken and would have no way of knowing how strong he really is ... only the battle in the sky v. Ishamael which they all thought was the DO/LB. Also consider that Elayne at something like 60% of her potential notes that with a weak angreal she can handle 2x Nynaeve's maximum (who is probably like 90% of potential). And with a very weak angreal while no more than 75% of her potential and not drawing on it fully she can fool the BA prisoners into thinking she is as powerful as one of the Forsaken.
You consistently talk as though Elayne and Aviendha are always at full potential when they are nowhere close to it. You are far too simplistic in your approach in figuring out strength. I have pieced together my strength estimates based on looking at how women grow over time, the amount of forcing they receive, direct quotes, author quotes and OP feats they can perform. Thus I am confident in my estimates. You and Sidious start out with how strong you think the Forsaken are and back your way into everyone else's strength with no regard to how close they are to full potential, or the authors own commentary on strength.
You have an excellent grasp of the broad series, but lacking the ability to quote the series correctly and missing the concept that there are 2 years of chronology that are weighted heavily toward the first 5 books you consistently bring in quotes from TSR or TFoH that speak of a character's CURRENT strength and seem to think that because there was 10 years in real world time that there was a long time between the timelines of the books. Nynaeve for instance, faced Moghedien before she reached her full potential. However, she had been actively Channeling (block or no) for well over a year at that point in the series ... given that she was already as strong as Siuan/Moiraine in EoTW without ever Channeling with her own knowledge and then being Forced for a year it follows that she would have gained in the ballpark of 85-90% of her maximum potential in the year+ related to the Tower.
We hear from Moiraine in New Spring that she gained strength at a pretty steady pace for 6 years, and was clearly well more than 2/3 of her Potential when she gained the Shawl (based on various women she thinks should defer to her), but that it would take several more years for her to attain her full strength. It seems obvious that women gain the greater part of their strength while training and being Forced to at least a tiny degree ... meaning active training is inherently Forcing compared to no training at all ... Nynaeve slowly gained strength as a Wilder for about 10 years prior to the series, then she started getting active training, which was far more Forceful than the typical Accepted as she had skipped her Novice training and the AS were all stunned by her potential. She is further Forced by her time fighting the Seanchan, and thus had gained the bulk of her strength by the time she faced Moghedien. Now in the few months between her Moghedien fight and meeting Alivia she probably gained a little more strength, but she has not been Forced abnormally in this time and her strength attainment would have slowed considerably. Then she heads to the Cleansing and in all likelihood was pushed to her full potential.
Egwene's story isn't much different, she was about normal for a Novice (in terms of how strong she was) when she left the Tower with Liandrin. Then was Forced in the extreme by the Seanchan and was pushed to Moiraine's strength by the end of TDR. As we see in TSR she is slightly stronger than Moiraine. A few months later she is still being Forced by the much more progressive training methods of the WO and competing with Aviendha and has gained the bulk of her strength, but once she hits the AS camp she would have slowed her strength attainment significantly. Once captured and in the Tower she is obviously Forced for a couple of months despite the forkroot. By TGS/ToM she is likely at full potential.
Elayne, however, does not have such Forcing. She is treated much more conservatively as DH in her early stages in the Tower, and Nynaeve does what she can to hold her back while on Toman Head. By the beginning of TSR Elayne is nowhere close to Egwene in strength, as evidenced by the fact that at the end of TSR Elayne is still much weaker than Moiraine (she is surprised that she can lift a single woman with Air, while Moiraine can lift 3x her body weight). Elayne's primary strength attainment takes place on the road from Tanchico to Salidar. By the time she gets there in TFoH she is around Moiraine level (she notes that she can lift a cauldron that "most" full Sisters could not have moved) ... she is likely a little weaker than Moiraine at this stage. By the time she leaves Ebou Dar she is clearly stronger than any AS except for Cadsuane and she and Aviendha are about equal as they each participate in the BoTW circle. It's very possible that she has stronger potential than Tamela and Viendre who she comments on while well shy of her own full potential. No way to know on that one. Once she is pregnant her strength attainment would be more akin to what Nynaeve experienced while blocked, but she is also not being Forced at this point so she is not gaining strength rapidly and is likely no more than 75% of her potential. Which squares with the general level you and Sidious place her at (roughly 60), but she has a long way to grow still as we see in ToM when she is observing Egwene's Wards and is clearly impressed with the Skill if nothing else.
Rand, however, is a special case as he seems to be as strong as the Forsaken from nearly the very beginning. I think he's reverted back to this uncanny strength since his epiphany on DM ... he is now nearly limitless it seems and may well have been back in tEoTW before Ishamael began corrupting him. Rand seems to have gained only marginal amounts of strength since then as he faced and defeated Ishamael, Be'lal, Asmodean, Rahvin and Sammael. He was even Forced by Asmodean to a degree but never seems to be much less than maximum channeling strength. I think this is due to the corruption attempts Ishamael laid out. Otherwise The Dragon Reborn may well have been limitless throughout the series and thus would have been able to destroy the Forsaken with ease.
Now, why is this general timeline important? Because we have to factor in the current level of strength of these women when certain events take place. Naturally Elayne thinks how strong Rand is in the TSR, she and Egwene combined are not even half of her own full potential! She would have expected Rand's strength to be like her's and be at less than full potential. She is quickly disabused of this when he turns out to be as Strong as a Forsaken level Channeler already. Remember Elayne and Egwene were not witness to most of his moments facing Forsaken and would have no way of knowing how strong he really is ... only the battle in the sky v. Ishamael which they all thought was the DO/LB. Also consider that Elayne at something like 60% of her potential notes that with a weak angreal she can handle 2x Nynaeve's maximum (who is probably like 90% of potential). And with a very weak angreal while no more than 75% of her potential and not drawing on it fully she can fool the BA prisoners into thinking she is as powerful as one of the Forsaken.
You consistently talk as though Elayne and Aviendha are always at full potential when they are nowhere close to it. You are far too simplistic in your approach in figuring out strength. I have pieced together my strength estimates based on looking at how women grow over time, the amount of forcing they receive, direct quotes, author quotes and OP feats they can perform. Thus I am confident in my estimates. You and Sidious start out with how strong you think the Forsaken are and back your way into everyone else's strength with no regard to how close they are to full potential, or the authors own commentary on strength.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Addressing problems with the Bell Curve
31/10/2012 11:30:42 AM
- 1456 Views
Who said RJ created a 100 point scale? I always assumed we did to make this easier to follow
31/10/2012 02:22:51 PM
- 828 Views
One more point here
31/10/2012 03:02:34 PM
- 707 Views
I've think I've finally done it. I've solved the entire Curve. Daigian is the key...
01/11/2012 09:20:57 AM
- 930 Views
Did some playing with your numbers to make this work better
01/11/2012 02:13:00 PM
- 888 Views
The Mean and SD are set by Daigian's position. Your options are therefore not possible...
02/11/2012 07:49:24 AM
- 834 Views
Yet you have many more SD between the Mean and Lanfear than you do Morgase and the Mean
02/11/2012 02:39:51 PM
- 721 Views
I absolutely agree. The lower side of the curve MUST be intersected by zero after 1 SD...
02/11/2012 03:03:52 PM
- 605 Views
I am not convinced Moiraine is the Mean. Merely 50% of Lanfear
02/11/2012 04:23:57 PM
- 758 Views
But on a Bell Curve the Mean IS 50% of Lanfear. You've just disproven your own contention.
02/11/2012 04:40:31 PM
- 684 Views
OMG no it is NOT!
02/11/2012 05:16:36 PM
- 624 Views
I agree with that. But please honestly look at the math I presented. It disproves the Bell Curve.
02/11/2012 05:24:41 PM
- 896 Views
It doesn't matter that you think the BC is disproved.
02/11/2012 06:07:19 PM
- 730 Views
Confusing post...
02/11/2012 06:30:40 PM
- 773 Views
If you choose to ignore the author go right ahead. I just think you are wrong
02/11/2012 09:05:14 PM
- 814 Views
Re: It doesn't matter that you think the BC is disproved.
02/11/2012 07:11:57 PM
- 708 Views
I think the number is about 10
03/11/2012 08:42:08 AM
- 780 Views
Nope
03/11/2012 04:14:45 PM
- 713 Views
Re: Nope
03/11/2012 04:39:07 PM
- 752 Views
Verin and Graendal each have angreal of unkown strength
03/11/2012 06:15:49 PM
- 672 Views
Re: Addressing problems with the Bell Curve
01/11/2012 06:23:07 PM
- 763 Views
Re: Addressing problems with the Bell Curve
01/11/2012 09:48:04 PM
- 724 Views
I'll have to disagree with much of this
03/11/2012 07:46:31 AM
- 777 Views
Why do you always think Strength is the point
03/11/2012 04:35:26 PM
- 547 Views
I don't - I merely appreciate it as a factor
03/11/2012 04:48:24 PM
- 651 Views
0 Evidence? Cyndane v. Alivia is plenty of evidence EDIT with exact quote
03/11/2012 06:17:39 PM
- 676 Views
One other thing you have forgotten about
03/11/2012 10:13:09 PM
- 659 Views
Your agenda blinds you to logic yet again...As I'll simply demonstrate with your example here...
03/11/2012 11:08:13 PM
- 717 Views
Nope, the only experience she has in reality is against Rand
03/11/2012 11:09:54 PM
- 620 Views
Nonsense.
03/11/2012 11:11:05 PM
- 654 Views
Believe as you will
03/11/2012 11:26:50 PM
- 813 Views
That's a classic.
04/11/2012 12:06:13 AM
- 673 Views
You misquote on a regular basis and have no grasp of the timeline in the series
04/11/2012 01:36:37 AM
- 539 Views
Hmm...
04/11/2012 07:08:04 AM
- 863 Views
stop getting all indignant ... I'm really not trying to be nasty to you
04/11/2012 04:20:06 PM
- 693 Views
Reply to your EDIT: I think YOU have a totally warped perspective, based on what you wish for.
03/11/2012 11:16:29 PM
- 662 Views
Funny that's exactly how I see your perspective
03/11/2012 11:25:52 PM
- 684 Views
I don't need to interpret the following in any way other than the obvious to get the picture...
04/11/2012 12:17:53 AM
- 2245 Views
as usual you miss that there is a timeline and strength growth throughout the series *NM*
04/11/2012 01:47:41 AM
- 304 Views