My main issue with Linda's list is the Forsaken occupy so many Levels 16-21 which seems very unlikley to me. IMO the Forsaken level Channelers all occupy Levels 20-21 and that these levels would occupy the top 85% of Strength/Effectiveness.
Well yes, I would agree that the weakest Forsaken are at about 85% (except Moghedien)and that the strongest are at 100%, but I would suggest that there are three levels. Remember, if we never knew about Cyndane we would assume that there are the strong Forsaken, like Lanfear, and weaker ones like Mesaana, so we'd have two levels. But we do have Cyndane, and we know that she can fit in between Lanfear and Graendal, which proves that these other levels probably do exist. We also know that six women exist who exceed Nynaeve in power, and based on the quotes Graendal should probably be one of them - meaning that there are three levels above Nynaeve. I would agree though that Nynaeve is 90% as strong as anyone.
Egwene level at 19 and Cadsuane 18 etc....
This I will never agree on. Egwene is far weaker than the Forsaken level channelers. We know this, you just don't want to believe it. Egwene makes two statements in Salidar...
1. She is unsure how she would fare against a Forsaken even linked with Romanda and Lelaine.
2. Nynaeve is the only woman in Salidar who can face the Forsaken.
The proportionality is obvious. IMO Nynaeve is much stronger than Egwene, and my educated guess is in the region of 30%. We even know that women exist who are stronger than Egwene, like Tamela and Viendre, who are not of Forsaken power like Nynaeve is.
I like the methodology you've applied, but I feel like having a Forsaken level channeler being that much weaker than the top (30%+) ... Moghedien and Mesaana would never have stood a chance as top tier Forsaken, and even Semirhage would be on the cusp due to her lower power level and never would have made it into the "elite top 6". We know they were willing to destroy each other during the WoP so the least skilled and the least powerful would have ended up either dead or as part of one of the major Forsaken's "staff". Why would Semirhage, one of the very top in the Forsaken hierarchy, create an alliance with a woman so much weaker who was also lower than her on the hierarchy AND not just make her a minion? Mesaana at 25% or more weaker than Lanfear, and as a less than skilled (by Forsaken standards) would never have risen so high. During the WoP she would have been a nice 2nd in command to Semirhage if she was that much weaker, but no way would she "match up closely" as she herself thinks ... even if that is delusional, she's not stupid enough to think she could take on a more skilled and significantly stronger opponent and hope to survive.
That is why I believe that all of the Forsaken are within 15% of strength of Ishamael/Lanfear. If not, they would have been killed. Mesaana is probably on 85%. Moghedien, IMO, is sitting at 70% or so. She states that in the AOL she was considered too weak to be a threat until she actually killed the person. That is prima facie evidence that the gap between her and higher powers is considerable. We also know that she never attended Forsaken meetings in the series until she was mindtrapped, and then she was under Moridin's protection. She most likely suspected assassination and therefore had to spy on the meetings with subtlety.
Even Moiraine's level has experienced no issues with any given weave in terms of strength. Which again makes me think of them as significantly powerful, at the least I think they are the mid-way point of maximum strength, which would mean 50% of all women can perform ANY weave from the AoL with her own natural strength ... Which seems reasonable to me.
Moiraine still shows fallibility. She becomes faint when she uses large amounts of the Power for Earth/Fire. She also relies on an angreal for large parts of the first half of the series. I think by the time you get to Egwene's strength you show little deficiency with saidar.
On my scale Lanfear can channel 441 "units" of saidar, Graendal at 98% can channel 432, Nynaeve 423, Egwene 352, Cadsuane 330, Moiraine 220, Vandene/Adeleas 106 and Daigian 71 ... Morgase would be 4 "units" ... Rand, assuming from RJs comments that there are "several levels of strength men have on top of women", could channel 625 "units" of saidin, but still have an effective strength that is equal to Lanfear. So a woman like Egwene is probably like 55% of Rand's RAW strength, but in reality is about 80% as effective as he (or Lanfear) is, when both are at full potential and assuming equal training.
Egwene is much too strong. Egwene + Romanda/Lelaine should equal Lanfear's strength. Egwene x2 should be about 120% of Lanfear's strength.
Lanfear would be significantly stronger than Egwene here, she would equal Egwene paired with a weaker Sister like Siuan at her new strength 90ish. To face a Male Forsaken Egwene would indeed have to link with both Romanda and Lelaine to have any chance against a male such as Rand ... linking bonuses aside they'd only have about a 15% strength advantage on my scale.
If Egwene thinks that Nynaeve can face one of the Forsaken, then we have to assume that in a circle with Romanda and Lelaine she is close to high Forsaken strength, not above it.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
Addressing problems with the Bell Curve
31/10/2012 11:30:42 AM
- 1455 Views
Who said RJ created a 100 point scale? I always assumed we did to make this easier to follow
31/10/2012 02:22:51 PM
- 828 Views
One more point here
31/10/2012 03:02:34 PM
- 707 Views
I've think I've finally done it. I've solved the entire Curve. Daigian is the key...
01/11/2012 09:20:57 AM
- 930 Views
Did some playing with your numbers to make this work better
01/11/2012 02:13:00 PM
- 888 Views
The Mean and SD are set by Daigian's position. Your options are therefore not possible...
02/11/2012 07:49:24 AM
- 834 Views
Yet you have many more SD between the Mean and Lanfear than you do Morgase and the Mean
02/11/2012 02:39:51 PM
- 719 Views
I absolutely agree. The lower side of the curve MUST be intersected by zero after 1 SD...
02/11/2012 03:03:52 PM
- 604 Views
I am not convinced Moiraine is the Mean. Merely 50% of Lanfear
02/11/2012 04:23:57 PM
- 757 Views
But on a Bell Curve the Mean IS 50% of Lanfear. You've just disproven your own contention.
02/11/2012 04:40:31 PM
- 684 Views
OMG no it is NOT!
02/11/2012 05:16:36 PM
- 623 Views
I agree with that. But please honestly look at the math I presented. It disproves the Bell Curve.
02/11/2012 05:24:41 PM
- 896 Views
It doesn't matter that you think the BC is disproved.
02/11/2012 06:07:19 PM
- 728 Views
Confusing post...
02/11/2012 06:30:40 PM
- 773 Views
If you choose to ignore the author go right ahead. I just think you are wrong
02/11/2012 09:05:14 PM
- 813 Views
Re: It doesn't matter that you think the BC is disproved.
02/11/2012 07:11:57 PM
- 708 Views
I think the number is about 10
03/11/2012 08:42:08 AM
- 778 Views
Nope
03/11/2012 04:14:45 PM
- 713 Views
Re: Nope
03/11/2012 04:39:07 PM
- 751 Views
Verin and Graendal each have angreal of unkown strength
03/11/2012 06:15:49 PM
- 670 Views
Re: Addressing problems with the Bell Curve
01/11/2012 06:23:07 PM
- 762 Views
Re: Addressing problems with the Bell Curve
01/11/2012 09:48:04 PM
- 722 Views
I'll have to disagree with much of this
03/11/2012 07:46:31 AM
- 777 Views
Why do you always think Strength is the point
03/11/2012 04:35:26 PM
- 547 Views
I don't - I merely appreciate it as a factor
03/11/2012 04:48:24 PM
- 650 Views
0 Evidence? Cyndane v. Alivia is plenty of evidence EDIT with exact quote
03/11/2012 06:17:39 PM
- 676 Views
One other thing you have forgotten about
03/11/2012 10:13:09 PM
- 658 Views
Your agenda blinds you to logic yet again...As I'll simply demonstrate with your example here...
03/11/2012 11:08:13 PM
- 716 Views
Nope, the only experience she has in reality is against Rand
03/11/2012 11:09:54 PM
- 620 Views
Nonsense.
03/11/2012 11:11:05 PM
- 653 Views
Believe as you will
03/11/2012 11:26:50 PM
- 812 Views
That's a classic.
04/11/2012 12:06:13 AM
- 672 Views
You misquote on a regular basis and have no grasp of the timeline in the series
04/11/2012 01:36:37 AM
- 538 Views
Hmm...
04/11/2012 07:08:04 AM
- 863 Views
stop getting all indignant ... I'm really not trying to be nasty to you
04/11/2012 04:20:06 PM
- 693 Views
Reply to your EDIT: I think YOU have a totally warped perspective, based on what you wish for.
03/11/2012 11:16:29 PM
- 661 Views
Funny that's exactly how I see your perspective
03/11/2012 11:25:52 PM
- 682 Views
I don't need to interpret the following in any way other than the obvious to get the picture...
04/11/2012 12:17:53 AM
- 2244 Views
as usual you miss that there is a timeline and strength growth throughout the series *NM*
04/11/2012 01:47:41 AM
- 304 Views