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I think he did Sidious Send a noteboard - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM

For books and books, we had people tell us men were stronger than women, and women needed circles to match men. Then RJ gave us the real answer and blew that misconception among the channelers into the garbage can. Why wouldn't he do the same thing here?

We still don't know what is going on there, and the most likely explanation is that RJ changed his mind. Moghedien tells Nynaeve that men are stronger in the Power. There can be no ignorance there, and yet we know that it isn't true in practice.

And that's okay, because Logain doesn't care about exact strength, or strength distribution. But we do. We have to be scientific and accurate, because we're trying to do something Logain has no interest in. Logain cares how effective people are at their tasks, and he had Androl promoted because he can Travel with extraordinary ease. But we're not into promoting Asha'man. We want to know exactly how strong they are, and how to figure out their strength. Comments from Flinn, Rand and Aviendha, as well as the Gateways of Androl and Reanne (Beonin too), prove that Gateway size is not a good indicator of exact strength. RJ even had Pevara make this mistake, in KoD, when she thought that they should bond men who make larger Gateways since they'll be stronger. Then who pops into her house and is likely to be her Warder? Androl.

Well I'm more like Logain I'm afraid, not a scientist in that sense. I don't think anyone has ever said that gateways can express exact strength but they give a good indication in most cases, like most weaves that are strength dependent. If you judged a channeler on who they can shield you'd probably be right in many cases too. You'd see that Nynaeve can shield most women therefore Nynaeve must be strong in the Power. However, if you get caught out by Berowin, you're caught out. Like with Androl. We don't live in a test tube.... Logain's thought processes are human, practical and mostly reliable. If Red Ajah bond the biggest gateway Ash'aman they will get the nine strongest men in the BT and Androl.

Lanfear is also the only woman we've seen with that strength, remember? That you'd naturally pick one outlier instead of another shows the lack of scientific rigor in your process, no? The right way is to judge the woman's OP strength AND her Talent at shielding. Not ignore one or the other just because it mostly works.

Lanfear and Rand are bad examples for the general population of channeling. You can rather apply it to weaker channelers. Cadsuane would think that Sorilea must be almost as strong as her to hold her, she wouldn't likely think of a shielding Talent.


I think it still holds that men have more strength than women. But it's also obvious how little that matters on an effectiveness scale. Lanfear in Raw terms could be a lot weaker than Rand, but clearly was more than his equal when they faced off ... Graendal shielded Aran'gar with ease because she was more "effectively strong". It is doubtful that any man could simply overwhelm Graendal with just raw strength (unless he caught her by surprise), she can too easily slice his flows or otherwise defend herself because she knows how to fight off an attack from an assailant who's flows she cannot see. She alludes to this when contemplating attacking Sammael, and it's ultimately why she knows she will lose since she was not already holding the Power she knew he had the clear advantage.

Where this probably matters at the moment is with the modern Channelers ... An average Asha'man will have a lot more raw strength than an average AS, but because they are not particularly well trained I don't think the effectiveness bonus a woman has is as prominent as it is with the AoL Channelers. Most modern AS have no experience facing any kind of fight, look how poorly they did against the Seanchan, now fighting a man whose flows are invisible to them and without training for it? Raw strength is almost always going to come out on top in that scenario. And I think we've seen that bear out in the text often enough. It's one of the reasons the AS look so weak IMO ... We only really see them on raw strength scales most of the time because they aren't well trained.

I believe only Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha and Cadsuane are capable of overcoming the strength gap at the moment. Which may not even be an issue for them as I would bet they are each at least as strong as an "average" man in raw terms.

I think it was Shannow who had a whole theory about gateway size and strength a while back ... There was a bunch of posts around it ... possibly in the wotmania days.


In the beginning of the series we were taught by Asmodean that men are much stronger and that it generally takes two women to match a man. At first glance one would think that he was perhaps lying (being Forsaken and all) but the example continued in the series. Rahvin said that Lanfear and Graendal would link if he or Sammael went for them, which is clearly an example of where Asmodean left off. Later we have Aes Sedai wondering whether two of them together can match an Asha'man.

Suddenly though, there seemed to be a shift and RJ said directly to us that women and men are effectively equal, even though men can hold more of the Power. I don't think it matters though, because a woman probably needs 4 saidar to Travel and a man 5 saidin, so it balances out to the same fraction of their power.

To me he clearly changed his mind, and he started to reinforce it more and more. He probably thought that female circles balanced the male strength advantage, but he replaced this later with the fact that all channelers are essentially equal, especially because men, too, can be in a circle. We then saw better examples of where Graendal matched up evenly with Sammael etc.
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2807 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1354 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1020 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1165 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1301 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1154 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1032 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1073 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1052 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1196 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 842 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1054 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1081 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1154 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1252 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1062 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 546 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1271 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1046 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1217 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 966 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1062 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1097 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1231 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1034 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1076 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1086 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1052 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1128 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1019 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1031 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1082 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 908 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1066 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1286 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 965 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1059 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 987 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1027 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 983 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1093 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 928 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1138 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1062 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1061 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 976 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 938 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 930 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 964 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 845 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 903 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1010 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 874 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1026 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 850 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 970 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1008 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1015 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1040 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1199 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 991 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 919 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 765 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1028 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 961 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 964 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1013 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 966 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 967 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 924 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 965 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 836 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1017 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 912 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 952 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 932 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 943 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 922 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 968 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 965 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1421 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 952 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 957 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 938 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 982 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 442 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 926 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 960 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1051 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1043 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 919 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 736 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1103 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 955 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 948 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1055 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 990 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1010 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 960 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 975 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1022 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 853 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 833 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 932 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 996 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 980 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 652 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 944 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1085 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 916 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1044 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 975 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 947 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1108 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 876 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1361 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 923 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1065 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1026 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 922 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1158 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 983 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1096 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 970 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 863 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1001 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1095 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1027 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1091 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1024 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1055 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 544 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1129 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1047 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1038 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1011 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 973 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1036 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 956 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 839 Views

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