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Re-read some stuff darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
Siuan states that despite being less than half her original strength her healing ability had not changed at all.

So from poor healer to poor healer? Groundbreaking...

Aviendha and Flinn both struggle with Traveling.

That isn't inability. Flinn can actually make gateways that can pass a cart. That is on par with Androl.

Nynaeve cannot make a Ter'angreal.

That's because its an abstract Talent like Dreaming or Listening to the Wind. You either have it or you don't. You can't just pick up a sa'angreal and suddenly identify ter'angreal like Aviendha does.

Rand has almost no healing ability.

Thats not inability, once again. I promise you that if he needs to Heal someone in the LB we will see it.

Conversely, Ishamael is stunned by the WF's ability with weather ... Unless you think he's only talking about Talaan this is an example where clearly weaker Channelers have created OP effects far gireater than expected. They only needed to link in order to use the BotW and what they did with that was also clearly well beyond what the FS thought should be possible. This speaks to both exceptional Talent and exceptional skill.

They do not have a Talent with the weather. They are well practiced in flows of Air. Elayne's ability with Air was greatly improved after a few lessons. That isn't Talent. That's practice and technique.

Go ahead and say it was strength that made the difference there, I'm sure Rand will rush out, grab a couple of weak angreal and form a quick circle and beat the DO :P

And strangely enough they demanded the strongest women possible for the BoW ;) No that was skill. The WF are very skilled with Air and probably Water too. It comes from generations of practice.


Egwene did not Heal Gawyn. She performed Healing weaves on him, but they were essentially ineffective. Her solution wasn't to grab an angreal and try to heal him it was to find a woman with more Talent to do the job. No amount of extra power was going to save Gawyn. This isn't too different from when Sorilea was able to make the gateway weave, but could not make it work. Unlike Androl, she doesn't have a strong enough Talent to make the weave function enough to be useful. Nor does Egwene have enough Talent to be an effective Healer.

Siuan is an average healer ... She managed to save Brynes soldiers which is significantly more than Sheriam, Egwene or Elayne can manage. The FACT that her ability to Heal changed not at all is because Talent doesn't change, it just is what it is. The Talent defines how much Power is necessary to make the weaves work, but no amount of additional power will let you have a greater effect than your Talent allows. S if you get a greater effect when you have an angreal it follows that your Talent is strong enough to continue to let you have an increased effect.

Flinn is one of the stronger Asha'man and openly states he has difficulty with Traveling. Androl can make a gateway large enou for a WAGON ... Androl makes gateways like Rands! Flinn has a weaker Talent for Traveling and therefor struggles with the weave despite being able to add power to it. His comment makes it clear that based on his strength he thinks he should be able to make one larger.

Rand may well be an exception now that he is "super Rand" ... After what he did at Maradon I won't rule anything out.

Every single Talent we have seen so far has shown us degrees of ability ... There are no "abstract" Talents. Like every other Talent, Foretelling or Dreaming or Ter'angreal ability, if the Talent is there an individual will have a set amount of ability with it. For all we know Nynaeve and Aviendha have the same Talent as Elayne, but to different degrees. Nynaeve gets "feelings" Aviendha can sense "purpose" and Elayne seems to be able to sense "form" therefore she can reproduce them to a degree. Certainly the Talents that require no weaves operate differently, but it doesn't change that Elaida had a weak FT Talent and Nicola a strong FT Talent.

I would say every Talent we have seen that requires specific weaves are incredibly common Talents, but the variation in the Talent defines how well the weave is executed. Thus you have wildly swinging variations on the Healing Talent that doesn't seem to have any correlation to OP Strength. Traveling looks to be the same ... Else why bother showing Androl or tell us Flinn can't make a gateway as large as his OP strength says he should? There is now proof that the ability to Travel is not dependent on OP strength, the stronger the Talent the weaker the Channeler can be and still pull off the weave. Clearly an individual with "average" Talent needs to dedicate a certain amount of OP into the weave to give it enough juice to function, but that isn't surprising ... We've seen plenty of weaves that require a lot of power to operate. But assuming how large a gateway is will give you even a general sense of a Channelers strength is a mistake as a very strong Channeler may only be able to create a small personal gateway if they have a weak Talent. And like everything else in WoT this is probably on the rare side. Outliers like Androl are obviously very rare, but what about someone like Beonin? IIRC she was able to create a quite large gateway... Much larger than she should have been able too ... Very easy to think she may have a disproportionate Talent for her strength. Sort of like Samitsu being "as effective as a circle" with Healing.

The WF have essentially inbred for 3000+ years and have become highly specialized in both knowledge and in genetic abilities. Over time they would have bred the Talent as well as the flow affinity into almost every woman. And please note it was the strength obsessed AS who made the call on the strongest women. It's clear that most Channelers from the modern era have not really pieced together that strength doesn't make much difference with Talents ... If they knew that they may have stepped back and given only WF a place in the use of the Bowl. Just like they did in the AoL ... Choose people for a circle based on their abilities rather than on strength.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 04/10/2012 at 08:01:44 PM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2810 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1358 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1024 Views
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Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1305 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1159 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1036 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1079 Views
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Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1200 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 846 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1057 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1085 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1159 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1256 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1066 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 548 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1275 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1050 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1221 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 970 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1065 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1101 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1234 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1038 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1079 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1091 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1057 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1133 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1023 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1036 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1087 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 912 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1070 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1290 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 969 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1063 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 996 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1033 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 988 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1096 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 933 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1141 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1067 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1065 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 981 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 942 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 935 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 970 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 851 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 909 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1016 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 879 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1030 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 855 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 976 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1012 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1020 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1044 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1204 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 995 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 924 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 769 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1033 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 966 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 969 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1017 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 972 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 974 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 927 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 969 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 840 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1021 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 917 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 957 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 937 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 947 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 926 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 972 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 969 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1425 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 956 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 960 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 942 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 988 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 443 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 929 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 965 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1058 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1047 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 922 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 737 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1106 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 961 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 951 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1059 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 996 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1015 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 964 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 982 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1025 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 857 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 837 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 936 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1001 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 985 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 653 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 949 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1092 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 921 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1049 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 979 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 952 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1115 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 881 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1368 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 928 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1071 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1032 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 927 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1165 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 986 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1101 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 973 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 867 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1007 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1099 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1031 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1097 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1028 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1060 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 545 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1132 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1051 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1043 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1015 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 977 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1041 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 961 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 846 Views

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