Siuan states that despite being less than half her original strength her healing ability had not changed at all.
So from poor healer to poor healer? Groundbreaking...
Aviendha and Flinn both struggle with Traveling.
That isn't inability. Flinn can actually make gateways that can pass a cart. That is on par with Androl.
Nynaeve cannot make a Ter'angreal.
That's because its an abstract Talent like Dreaming or Listening to the Wind. You either have it or you don't. You can't just pick up a sa'angreal and suddenly identify ter'angreal like Aviendha does.
Rand has almost no healing ability.
Thats not inability, once again. I promise you that if he needs to Heal someone in the LB we will see it.
Conversely, Ishamael is stunned by the WF's ability with weather ... Unless you think he's only talking about Talaan this is an example where clearly weaker Channelers have created OP effects far gireater than expected. They only needed to link in order to use the BotW and what they did with that was also clearly well beyond what the FS thought should be possible. This speaks to both exceptional Talent and exceptional skill.
They do not have a Talent with the weather. They are well practiced in flows of Air. Elayne's ability with Air was greatly improved after a few lessons. That isn't Talent. That's practice and technique.
Go ahead and say it was strength that made the difference there, I'm sure Rand will rush out, grab a couple of weak angreal and form a quick circle and beat the DO
And strangely enough they demanded the strongest women possible for the BoW No that was skill. The WF are very skilled with Air and probably Water too. It comes from generations of practice.
Egwene did not Heal Gawyn. She performed Healing weaves on him, but they were essentially ineffective. Her solution wasn't to grab an angreal and try to heal him it was to find a woman with more Talent to do the job. No amount of extra power was going to save Gawyn. This isn't too different from when Sorilea was able to make the gateway weave, but could not make it work. Unlike Androl, she doesn't have a strong enough Talent to make the weave function enough to be useful. Nor does Egwene have enough Talent to be an effective Healer.
Siuan is an average healer ... She managed to save Brynes soldiers which is significantly more than Sheriam, Egwene or Elayne can manage. The FACT that her ability to Heal changed not at all is because Talent doesn't change, it just is what it is. The Talent defines how much Power is necessary to make the weaves work, but no amount of additional power will let you have a greater effect than your Talent allows. S if you get a greater effect when you have an angreal it follows that your Talent is strong enough to continue to let you have an increased effect.
Flinn is one of the stronger Asha'man and openly states he has difficulty with Traveling. Androl can make a gateway large enou for a WAGON ... Androl makes gateways like Rands! Flinn has a weaker Talent for Traveling and therefor struggles with the weave despite being able to add power to it. His comment makes it clear that based on his strength he thinks he should be able to make one larger.
Rand may well be an exception now that he is "super Rand" ... After what he did at Maradon I won't rule anything out.
Every single Talent we have seen so far has shown us degrees of ability ... There are no "abstract" Talents. Like every other Talent, Foretelling or Dreaming or Ter'angreal ability, if the Talent is there an individual will have a set amount of ability with it. For all we know Nynaeve and Aviendha have the same Talent as Elayne, but to different degrees. Nynaeve gets "feelings" Aviendha can sense "purpose" and Elayne seems to be able to sense "form" therefore she can reproduce them to a degree. Certainly the Talents that require no weaves operate differently, but it doesn't change that Elaida had a weak FT Talent and Nicola a strong FT Talent.
I would say every Talent we have seen that requires specific weaves are incredibly common Talents, but the variation in the Talent defines how well the weave is executed. Thus you have wildly swinging variations on the Healing Talent that doesn't seem to have any correlation to OP Strength. Traveling looks to be the same ... Else why bother showing Androl or tell us Flinn can't make a gateway as large as his OP strength says he should? There is now proof that the ability to Travel is not dependent on OP strength, the stronger the Talent the weaker the Channeler can be and still pull off the weave. Clearly an individual with "average" Talent needs to dedicate a certain amount of OP into the weave to give it enough juice to function, but that isn't surprising ... We've seen plenty of weaves that require a lot of power to operate. But assuming how large a gateway is will give you even a general sense of a Channelers strength is a mistake as a very strong Channeler may only be able to create a small personal gateway if they have a weak Talent. And like everything else in WoT this is probably on the rare side. Outliers like Androl are obviously very rare, but what about someone like Beonin? IIRC she was able to create a quite large gateway... Much larger than she should have been able too ... Very easy to think she may have a disproportionate Talent for her strength. Sort of like Samitsu being "as effective as a circle" with Healing.
The WF have essentially inbred for 3000+ years and have become highly specialized in both knowledge and in genetic abilities. Over time they would have bred the Talent as well as the flow affinity into almost every woman. And please note it was the strength obsessed AS who made the call on the strongest women. It's clear that most Channelers from the modern era have not really pieced together that strength doesn't make much difference with Talents ... If they knew that they may have stepped back and given only WF a place in the use of the Bowl. Just like they did in the AoL ... Choose people for a circle based on their abilities rather than on strength.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 04/10/2012 at 08:01:44 PM
Problems with gateways
28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
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Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
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Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
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It's been discussed before...
28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
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I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
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Re: I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
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Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
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Regarding shadowspawn:
28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
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Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
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I don't think RJ thought about it
28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
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Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
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Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
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Re: Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
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He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
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Gateway Talent I'd say
02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
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I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
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No I think they're more about strength
02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
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I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
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Egwene could not heal Gawyn
03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
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She did Heal him
04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
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Re-read some stuff
04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
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Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
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But his thought processes are sound
04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
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It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
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Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
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Ummm...
05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
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Re: Ummm...
06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
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I don't think RJ changed his mind
06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
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I think he did
08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
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She wouldn't have to guess!
09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
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Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
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There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
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I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
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Exactly...
10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
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Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
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Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
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AND...
10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
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Re: AND...
11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
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Re: AND...
12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
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Re: AND...
12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
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I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
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Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
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You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
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Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
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Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
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the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
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Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
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to the point on the Circle
06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
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Circles don't add the Talents...
07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
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I've been thinking about this
07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
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Circles give added precision, remember?
07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
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I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
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Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
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Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
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Highly doubtful...
08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
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Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
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Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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That is actually the crux of my issue
08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
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That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
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Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
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the text is not inconsistent.
19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
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I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
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RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
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I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
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THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
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It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
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Re: to the point on the Circle
07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
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Healing is a thing of the physical body
07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
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Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
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That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
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There is so much evidence against this
04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
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Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
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Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
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He's referring to skimming
06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
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I think we aren't far off in interpretation
06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
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Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
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Please explain Androl then
07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
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OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
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You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
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07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
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i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
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I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
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I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
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How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
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the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
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I agree with this PoV
06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
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Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
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I think you use the word Talent too liberally
08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
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I disagree
08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
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I sort of agree with Sidious there
09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
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Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
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Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
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Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
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Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
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Life skills and OP skills...
02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
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Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
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And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
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Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
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The point is the same regardless
03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
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You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
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weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
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Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
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Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
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