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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM

I agree there's obviously a relationship between Travelling and TAR, but I'm less sure of the mechanics, but it's possible indeed that the Gateway opens in TAR, and it's using the properties of TAR that two locations are made the same, or that a hole is made between the two. I suspect gateway size is a matter of strength/talent with Spirit, and perhaps strength of will. There is a corrolation between global raw strength and gateways, but it's even more a specific flow and talent handling it which would be the most important factor.

Early books also say that there's a correlation between strength in Spririt and Dreaming, though this doesn't fit with people like Bair.
Based on what happened with Perrin in TAR, his incapacity to think himself out of the dreamspike zone, I had this notion that perhaps the dreamspike is some sort of AI reproducing "human will" and which shifts or twist in a small way the reflection of an area of the real world. It would mean the reflection between TAR and the RL isn't synchronized anymore in a limited perimeter (the dreamspike would have a limit of how far it can alter TAR and maintain these changes).

This would mean that if you know how exactly the reflection of the RW perimeter in TAR is shifted by the dreamspike - and they all seem to have a unique sequence - you could alter your Gateway weave accordingly to compensate, what Moridin referred to as "knowing the key", and thus you could Travel to and from the place normally.

Yup. that was exactly what I thought. Its like the Dramspike messes with the "GPS location" of a place in TAR. It resembles its physical correlate, but something is scrambled.

Another skill for which we've seen this is shielding, and again it's something of Spirit.

Yup.

I doubt it's the right explanation. Don't forget Trollocs breed normally, and Myrddraal happened naturally as a throwback. If there was any "soul binding" involved, it occured with the original specimens only and truth be told I doubt there's any "soul binding" involved... I think the geneticians simply created viable lifeforms and those being attracted a soul from the soul pool "naturally".

But we don't know if the seemingly "normal" birth of Trollocs has something to do with the True Power. What if its the TP in them that allows fetal Trollocs to snag a soul (or whenever a soul is fitted to a body). Just because they seem normal in their breeding doesn't mean they're breeding naturally. After all, the idea of a soul being "attracted" to a TP tainted body seems not very possible to me. The DO also seems to have a "soul pool" of his own. He may well be powering Trolloc births through that.
IMO, the reason why constructs can't use Traveling Gateways is that their souls doesn't correspond to what they really are physically. The problem might be when you exit: to "TAR" you're not a Trolloc but a human or animal. It can't hold you together, so to speak, it tries to revert you to what you should be, and you die. Moridin seems to have a trick to bring Shadowspawn to TAR (we could debate if those seen with Ishamael in the early series were real or TAR/dreamshards creations, but Aran'gar in KOD at least never questionned the reality of the Zomoran, perhaps snatching them there from their dreams.) It could also be that it's "double-gateways" which kill Shadowspawn, gateways opening in and out of TAR at the same time, but that they can pass through a "single-gateway" leading only to or out of TAR, not two locations. But it's doubtful as they can't use Skimming Gateways either.

This works too. Of note here is that Myrdraal and Trollocs (?) don't have dreams. On the flipside, the Green Man seems to have been in charge of a pocket dimension with very TAR like properties, and seemed to have no problems controlling it.

As for the Zomoran, they may be like the Gholam that Rand said could pass through Gateways. While it is perfectly possible this was a Brandon invention, nothing says this isn't strictly true either.

However, those Zomoran could have been Moridin's constructs in his Dreamshard. Then, for all intents and purposes they're real.

It's pretty clear elements can pass through a gateway, the question is more why a difference in air pressure in the two locations doesn't create the physical phenomenons it should. This could be because the two sides of a gateway aren't connected physically as we could presume, as there's TAR standing in-between. Weather/elements act strangely in TAR.

It could also be that elements can be stopped from passing through a Gateway, if its creator so wishes.
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2889 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1462 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1107 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1250 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1402 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1245 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1127 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1167 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1147 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1265 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 939 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1148 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1173 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1254 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1338 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1148 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 587 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1362 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1124 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1306 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1061 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1147 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1182 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1322 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1130 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1165 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1178 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1145 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1224 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1098 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1109 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1171 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1003 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1146 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1374 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1064 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1143 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1083 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1123 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1067 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1185 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1016 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1220 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1148 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1157 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1067 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1038 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1026 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1068 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 931 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 988 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1100 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 956 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1115 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 933 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1052 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1123 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1097 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1126 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1297 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1085 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1005 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 853 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1120 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1045 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1073 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1093 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1058 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1062 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1014 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1049 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 927 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1093 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 993 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1034 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1027 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1036 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1006 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1066 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1068 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1479 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1041 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1051 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1027 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1082 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 467 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1003 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1044 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1146 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1127 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1006 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 770 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1197 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1042 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1036 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1152 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1079 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1089 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1038 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1066 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1115 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 941 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 916 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1011 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1075 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1060 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 684 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1026 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1173 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1004 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1138 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1060 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1029 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1198 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 958 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1454 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1009 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1158 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1116 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1005 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1269 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1068 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1183 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1063 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 949 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1091 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1172 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1103 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1194 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1128 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1147 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 576 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1213 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1128 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1118 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1097 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1069 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1133 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1055 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 934 Views

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