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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... LoialT Send a noteboard - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM
I have theorized before that all Gateways lead to TAR. Notice how the weave Egwene used to enter the dream world was tweaked very little to give the actual Traveling weave. I think what happens is that you basically make something of a double Gateway when you Travel. The Gateway actually opens into TAR, and another opens from TAR into the real world. The space between the two TAR locations is actually contracted to nothing (since such things are possible in TAR).

Several aspect of Gateways reinforce this. For one thing, their size has less to do with OP strength than other weaves we've seen. This could indicate that Gateway size might partially correlate to your strength in the Dream, too. For another, to make a Gateway, you need to know your current location, or you can never use it. This is explained if the current location is needed to open a portal to TAR. Within TAR, porting to a new location is easy, and that's why you don't care so much about knowing your destination. Lastly, of course, the Dreamspike is something that blocks a region of TAR, and blocks Traveling in a corresponding region of the real world. That is very telling.

Now, if this is true, then the inconstancies over what can pass through Gateways is explained. Constructs are artificial beings into which souls have been brought in by human channelers. Entering into TAR might simply rip that human made connection. A human souls connection to its body is much stronger, so much so that hurting the "soul construct" that you make when you're dreamwalking can actually hurt the body. And since TAR can rip such connections between body and soul, this may also explain why the Wise Ones insist entering it in the flesh is wrong.

On the flip side, what does and doesn't enter through a gateway might actually be at the command of the person who makes it. It could be that the dimensionless space between the two locations linked by the Gateway is actually of TAR, and anything passing through that space would be subject to the rules of TAR. So the lack of strong winds could entirely be a result of channelers of this Age simply not wishing for the wind. One the flip side, when Aviendha made her first Gateway, she never knew about this, so she simply didn't think to prevent wind and snow from coming through. Same with Egwene when she opened her first Gateway into the Waste. She felt a blast of heat, and if heat can travel through a Gateway, so can wind. That it usually doesn't is proof that there is inconsistency in how this works, which can be explained by this being under the control of the individual channelers.


I think you are definitely correct. This would also help further explain why it may soon be impossible to travel as the Pattern begins to go crazy. It is not just that you aren't sure where you're going, it's that TAR, which is very sensitive to ephemeral change would grow rather slippery if those solid aspects of the world started radically changing too.

Still, I am not sure about the physics issues. It seems like RJ's original ideas about Traveling, at least in EotW and tGH were that it was more like teleporting. He may not have thought this through quite as much as he thought about TAR, the Ways, Portal Stones until later...
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2810 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1358 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1024 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1169 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1305 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1159 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1036 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1079 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1058 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1200 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 847 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1059 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1085 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1159 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1256 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1067 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 548 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1275 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1050 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1221 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 970 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1065 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1101 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1234 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1039 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1079 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1091 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1057 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1133 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1023 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1036 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1087 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 912 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1070 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1290 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 969 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1063 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 996 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1033 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 988 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1096 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 933 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1141 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1067 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1065 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 981 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 942 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 935 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 970 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 851 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 909 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1016 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 879 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1030 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 855 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 976 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1012 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1020 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1044 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1204 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 997 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 924 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 769 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1033 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 966 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 969 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1017 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 972 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 974 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 927 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 969 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 840 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1021 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 917 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 957 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 937 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 948 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 926 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 972 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 969 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1425 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 957 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 960 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 942 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 988 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 443 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 929 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 965 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1058 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1047 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 922 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 737 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1106 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 961 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 951 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1059 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 996 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1015 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 964 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 982 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1025 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 857 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 837 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 936 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1001 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 985 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 653 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 949 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1092 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 921 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1049 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 979 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 952 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1115 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 881 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1368 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 928 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1071 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1032 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 927 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1165 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 986 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1101 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 973 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 867 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1007 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1099 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1031 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1097 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1028 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1060 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 545 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1132 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1051 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1043 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1016 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 977 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1041 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 961 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 846 Views

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