Depending on how long Ishamael was free before first falling dormant behind the Seals (long enough to ensure LTTs suicide, perhaps his one great service to the world,) I think he could have corrupted Randland and Seanchan versions with equal ease, for the same reason: He could do it at the source. He could plausibly have acted later though, since deep knowledge of the Prophecies is uncommon. Professional scholars could surely notice, but change and discovery would have to occur within a single life time, else original quotes would be attributed to mistranslation, misinterpretation, transcription error or (wait for it...) sabotage. Obviously Ishamael would not create, well, obvious corruptions, knowing they would need to pass long term scrutiny from scholars familiar with the originals. Given the history and skepticism regarding similarly ancient real texts, and their interpretation, it is plausible to imagine someone with Ishamaels knowledge, powers and longevity doing something similar with Randland prophecies. If people today can credibly claim Nicaeas NT standardization everything from suppressing Gnosticism to power crazed wholesale revision of BOTH Testaments (despite leaving the Tanakh untouched,) Ishamael attempting something similar is at least as plausible.

It just feels self-serving to dismiss every inconvenient Seanchan prophecy as "Ishy corruption," then treat all those in the Westlands (thrice as old, correspondingly more vulnerable to written/oral preservation errors we know common to ancient records) as Randland Gospel.


The place the BA tried (often successfully) to run clandestinely almost from its inception? Remember the Tower learning of the Dragons Rebirth via Foretelling only witnessed by the Amyrlin and three others (one of whom died instantly)? Remember the BA nonetheless and almost immediately assassinating said Amyrlin, then hunting down all boys born at the time and thwarting Moiraine and Siuans attempts to find them? No, I did not forget the WT; I just recalled its limitations, and that it has always been more gray than purely white. On one occasion (probably more) Ishy practically ran the place.

Ishamaels position is interesting because it forced him to play the long game. With the BA at his disposal he could have leveled the Tower just as he did the Ten Nations, or found and purged every copy of the Prophecies of the Dragon, but his situation required sparing institutions that might later be vital assets. Come to that, the Prophecies' continued existence is strong, though inconclusive, evidence he had a hand in them as well. Too, there is a real possibility the BA and other Darkfriends slipped in some Shadow prophecies undetected. It is certainly odd to think Ishy remade the Westlands, not once, but twice, yet left both Tower and Prophecies unmolested.


Those are two of many possible interpretations. If "the Crystal Throne" can plausibly be metonymy (which I concede,) the same is at least as true of "the Nine Moons." Tuons pre-coronation title was "Daughter of the Nine Moons," implying the Empress herself (may she live forever,) not the court little more than her extension.


Possible, but, strictly speaking, marriage bound Mat, not Rand, fulfilling no prophecy "he [the Dragon]
will bind the Nine Moons to him." That suggests a direct link between Rand and the Empress; that, plus adam and Tuons sul'dam status, is why many long thought she would be one of two women using the Domination Band on Rand at TG.


I would say "possible but not plausible," but meant it as a reminder not to assume too much of any prophecy; remember what happened to Croesus.


Fair enough, but that only tells us RJ/Sanderson are not putting all cards on the table; it still does not tell us what cards they hold.


I would not presume to question the WoG, but that means either 1) no Westlands prophecies of the Dragon have been made since the Breaking (except Gitara sending Tigraine to the Waste to conceive him, and Foretelling his birth as it happened ) or 2) many such prophecies in the succeeding 3000 years are accepted, but not part of the KC as such. Common sense and Gitara suggest the latter, making the point semantic: Even if Ishy never corrupted the KC proper, he had many other equally valid and appealing targets. Any from periods he was free would be automatic immediate choices. It is ridiculous to think Luthair carried ONLY the Breaking-era KC to Seanchan, leaving behind any and all related prophecies from the 2000 years since. Any such Ishy already corrupted would have been Seanchan canon before the empires inception.


I agree with that general view, but none of it is certain; "the unstained tower"s meaning is VERY debatable. It does not even necessarily mean TV, but even if it does it could mean anything from purging the BA and Mesaana to ending the civil war to Dumai's Wells. Again, I hold with your general view, largely supported by Mins inevitable viewings, both those of Logain and the recent one of the Dragons Fang as an inspirational rather than terrifying symbol. However, I am leery of taking anything not explicit for granted in a series predicated on scrambling expectations and archetypes. If Jordan played it straight Moiraine would have imprisoned Thom in the ToG before going off to conceive Moridin with Rand, instead of those things being alluded to but in/averted.


Developing a male internal organization would further a deep division whose repair is critical to any future unified channeling organization. Some techniques and training will always be exlusive to each gender due to saidin and saidars different and diametrically opposed natures, but the biggest challenge for any true channeler leaders is overcoming that to replicate the constructive give and take between them that drives the Wheel of Time itself. Fact is, all current Aes Sedai are horribly suited to that; 3000 years of cultural and institutional conditioning tell them one of the TVs chief duties is eliminating the mortal global threat of male channelers.

Part of why I expect Logain to become Amyrlin is it would go far toward breaking down female resistance to male channelers in one fell swoop, especially when he showed sound leadership. I still do not understand why people dismiss Logain as a leader despite the fact he was a minor noble before learning to channel and leading an army that conquered a sizable chunk of the Westlands. Why is the worldly experience of a backwoods village mayors 20 year old daughter so much greater? Logain may not be the best qualified, but is eminently more so than Egwene, and would consequently be a significant political improvement.

He has another critical experience she lacks: Channeling in and even leading co-ed links. Cohesively leading an integrated group of male AND female channelers will be the most vital role for any future Amyrlin. Logain is already doing it while Egwene has only begun considering OTHERS doing it. Far worse, her view of it is very maternalistic; despite knowing saidin is cleansed, she envisions Reds Bonding male channelers to maintain control, not be equal partners. She considers Reds Bonding Asha'man for control natural and necessary, but Asha'man Bonding AES SEDAI remains a personal and professional affront.

Such a double standard would be fatal to any future unity, but Egwene shows no sign of even recognizing, let alone trying to overcome, her prejudice. Logains group, on the other hand, treats it as a circumstantial necessary evil: SOMEONE must lead, and they cannot let it be those sent to gentle/kill them. If/when Aes Sedai attitudes change (as those in Rands vicinity largely have,) that necessity will, but they will not cede control until those receiving it demonstrate trustworthiness. Their mistrust is well founded on the Aes Sedais completely unfounded one. Thus a capable male Amyrlin experienced with and able to reassure both sides is highly desirable. Logain can bridge the gap as no woman except perhaps Nynaeve could.


That is the flip side of developing a distinct male internal organization: It deepens rather than bridges the vast existing divide. A single leader is vital to overcoming that, but a wise and experienced male one a far better means than a young strong willed village girl. That would be true even if virtually all Asha'man did not expect domination from a female Amyrlin (again, a well founded fear,) but is doubly so since they do. The best way to convince Asha'man they are not second class citizens is to have one lead; the best way to convince Aes Sedai they SHOULD not be is for one to lead well.


In a way, that is the crux of it: There is no way in Shayol Ghul any but a few Asha'man will follow Egwene or any Aes Sedai at TG or anywhere else. They would follow WOs or WFs before taking any Aes Sedais orders. Tarmon Gaidon just raises the ante, because they came to follow the Dragon Reborn prophecied for 3000 years, who offered them power and glory, then Cleansed the Taint, saving them from madness and death. They will not simply shrug their shoulders and instead obey the girl-queen who brought the world to tell him HOW to fight TG instead of following him to it.


Why not? The WFs and Sea Folk captains defer to male swordmasters in all combat; even the Mistress of Ships defers to hers in war. Likewise, WOs defer to chiefs on areas within their authority, even if the question of what falls within whose bailiwick can be hotly debated. Far from a barrier to male integration and authority, the Sea Folk and Aiel offer TV invaluable models.

Mens status in SF and Aiel society is in stark contrast to that in TV, where, because channelers lead and all channelers are women, every man is subordinate to even weak Aes Sedai. Gareth Bryne had to practically beg Egwene for even minimal authority over the army she asked him to lead, and was shocked she allowed the little he got. Understandably, since, with the slight exception of a few Greens, all other Aes Sedai treat each Tower Guard as a mere tool to be used until irreparably broken, then cast aside. Look how everyone, even the woman who wants to marry him, has treated Gawyn since the series began: The Usurper Towers repeated attempts to kill him, with the connivance of the Amyrlin who helped raise him, finally broke his steadfast loyalty, and his treatment from the Restored/Tower in Exile has been better only by comparison.

Maybe Moiraines return will help; her relationship with Lan is the single case in FOURTEEN BOOKS of ANY Aes Sedai treating ANY man as partner and equal. Moiraine takes the lead because of the nature of the Bond and Aes Sedai society, but rarely DEMANDS obedience, and never from entitlement or through the Bond, only on the strength of Lans willing oath. In fact, on several occasions she offers to release that oath, and the Bond, if he feels them too onerous.

Nynaeve, and, thanks to Rand and her noble rearing, maybe Elayne are the only other Aes Sedai capable of even conceiving such a relationship, let alone maintaining it. That definitely includes Egwene, so gratified Gawyn is finally a "partner" who mindlessly accedes to her every command. No, a thousand times no; even if her behavior with women and non-channelers were above reproach (which it hardly is,) she would remain completely unsuitable to lead a unified post-TG Tower, and if "her character development is complete" that will simply never change. That quote is ominous enough in light of her Dream of a mountain whose summit she can only reach by cooperating with a Seanchan woman. If her character development is complete by age twenty she was probably never suitable to lead anything larger than Emonds Field in the first place.

Be honest: If YOU were a male channeler, would you entrust your life and sanity to women who all saw you as a rabid dog, except a few who considered you a useful but very expendable tool? Most Greens have enough martial (and other... ) passion to at least have some respect and compassion for men, but even most of them treat even their Warders more as beloved pets or steeds than as partners. You think I give Egwene too little credit, but I think you give her, and the organization so badly influencing her, too much.


To say I find this comment ironic would be massive understatement.


Oh, yes, Perrins weeks of discovering some Seanchan are not Darkfriends make him a much more qualified liason than the Empress' husband. Do not distract me from listing Egwenes flaws by forcing me to list Perrins.

Elayne is the logical choice to lead the "free Westlands" politically, and to join Tuon as dual political leader. The Ever Victorious Army, and the Seanchans enlightened despotism, made Tuon political leader of the lands where they were victorious. Egwenes Dream does strongly suggest cooperation with her (in which case the veracity of "Egwenes character development is complete" goes out the window, because her primal fear and hatred of the Seanchan has been one of her strongest attributes for a dozen volumes.) It is just that Westlands leaders consider the Amyrlins counsel from necessity, not respect, while constantly wary of many hidden hooks. Egwene said it herself: Aes Sedai will plot and scheme until TG itself; the Westlands' other rulers know that as well as any twenty year old does.


Fair enough; there are neither beginnings nor ends, and if Tigraine had not fled Andor at Gitaras urging Rand would never have been conceived.


My bet is Caemlyn, but it is far from "clear" he did not mean a Blight invasion. For that matter, the Trollocs in Caemlyn did not come from Disneyland.


I was not thinking of Mat freeing the damane before TG, no, but subsequently. The Last Battle will surely be pivotal, and encounters with both Mat and prominent female channelers, but I do not expect a complete status quo reversal before TG. It will probably be one of RJs deliberate loose ends; we will be able to anticipate its general development without ever seeing its actual conclusion. Honestly, it could be argued the Seanchan are right for the wrong reasons; Aes Sedai are dangerous and untrustworthy, Three Oaths or no (e.g. Manetheren and the Consolidation.) Just not because of the One Power. Convincing Tuon the One Power is not dangerous may prove easier than convincing her Aes Sedai are not treacherous snakes (it would with me.)


It is not a given they will be diverted. Among the biggest WoT themes is that what we want/expect often has little bearing on what will be.


This is just my personal belief but, strategically unsound as fighting on two fronts is, I think the Seanchan, with typical megalomania, will strike the WT AND BT simultaneously. That is where I think Mat will turn the Ever Victorious Army to Caemlyns liberation, after the BT is rent in fire and ruin. Obviously Caemlyn will be quickly lost unless Taim and his new crop of Dreadlords are neutralized early.


Possibly; he is scheduled to Travel back to Caemlyn from the ToG, right?


Again I must ask: Why? It is not like the Seanchan will Travel their entire army right into the center of the BT. That would not be tactically sound in the first place ("hey, let's blindly deploy our entire army into the heart of the enemys fortress: LEEEROY JEEENKINS! ") They will probably want raken to scout, though that could prove disastrous: Taim will deny any intel by the simple expedient of blasting them from the sky, and their failure to return will signal loss of surprise, transforming the Seanchans slow, careful mass assault into a desperate (and correspondingly less coordinated) blind charge. It could end right there, with a head long sprint into a Dumai's Wells redux.

However, partly because of limited intel and partly because of common sense, they will most likely try to approach within staging distance rather than close enough to meet the Dreamspikes barrier. Something akin to the US Navys island hopping in the Pacific War; Travelings mechanics tend to dictate that, as we have often seen. They also impose a logistical limit on how great a force may be transported at once; for a large scale assault like that intended, Fists of Heaven remain superior in deployment size and speed. The intelligent course is again to repeatedly Travel large but manageable groups to within marching distance of the BT, until the entire army is present at a secure staging ground, then reassemble the whole for a conventional attack supported by damane. It may be tempting to launch a lightning strike like Rand did against Rahvin, but he leapts heedlessly into an ambush that slaughtered huge swathes of his force, including Mat and Avi. Unless the Seanchan commander can access balefire (and a sa'angreal to match the Dragon Reborn channeling through an angreal,) that outcome is unpromosing.

It may come down to channeling numbers, but the difference at the BT itself will probably be Logain and/or Rands timely arrival. On the other hand, if they arrive to find the Seanchan assaulting Taim, they could at least initially aid the wrong side. That may be Mats pivotal role: If he returns to Caemlyn to find it under attack with aid from the BT, a Seanchan strike on the latter would be heaven sent. Then he need only convince the Low Blood leading the assault he is Prince of Ravens rather than (or at least, in addition to) some insubordinate Oathbreaker peasant.


The Seanchan know how to link to have circles; Step 1: Find a channeler, Step 2: Collar her. They just do not know (or will not admit) sul'dam can channel right along with damane. In fact, they likely do; just unwittingly, because damane wield the Power flowing from BOTH through the link. That actually raises a good point: Unless Taim has more than the two Reds he manifestly turned, he is limited to a single circle of five channelers.


But... her character development is complete! If she will not accept negotiations/alliance with the Seanchan now, she never will.

No, Rand is not yet ready for kneeling to the Crystal Throne; to my knowledge, no one ever said HIS character development was complete (though he is far more mature and wise than Egwene, hence he can and does still manipulate her at need, but only then, and not without the grace to feel guilty.) There is a reason we have an entire final volume to read instead of a ToM Epilogue containing TG. Rand is no more ready to deal with Tuon than she with him (their last meeting confirmed for her all the most dire legends and fears from male channelers, particularly the Dragon.) Yet it must happen before the end, and both make concessions for the greater good.

Both pride and political realism demand Tuon get significant concessions from Rand before joining him; we saw that at their last meeting, too; it fell apart because the Empress (may she live forever) cannot FOLLOW anyone. Even were she psychologically able, letting any of the Blood see that would invite dangerous threats to her iron grip on power. Think about it: Assassinating superiors, even imperial heirs, is routine, expected, in Seanchan. But even the most treacherous and ambitious Darkfriends consider a REIGNING Empress (may she live forever) literally untouchable. The simple fact someone, even a Forsaken, managed to kill one is already threat enough to Tuon; she cannot afford to further humanize her station before senior nobles. Her security and very safety depend on being seen as superhuman.


I will not throw the quote out again. Suffice it to say I am reminded of what I said on reading it: Sanderson is not RJ.


Plausible, except I am not sure why Perrin would seek out Tylee except as character witness, since he knows Mat married Tuon. Enough Westlands main characters have Seanchan experience to sell those without it; the tricky part will be selling the proud suspicious Seanchan, particularly since it requires extensive dealings with marath'damane. Getting the snake to talk to the rabbit is easy; geting the rabbit to talk to the snake is the hard part.


Um, I do not know that any such thing is apparent. Did RJ, or at least Sanderson, endorse this "Egwene is co-protagonist" idea or something? Just because she thinks the Wheel revolves around her does not mean it actually does; her role may be no more than leading Lightside female channelers, which, while significant, is far from supreme. Foreshadowing suggests she and Tuon must deal as well (though the Dream allows her no way to know WHICH Seanchan woman she must cooperate with,) but nothing requires she do so in conjunction with an agreement directly involving Rand. At this point, I think Tuon dealing with Egwene before dealing with Rand at least as likely as the reverse.


Mats marriage is an open secret already. Mat was present when Thom told Perrin outright. They certainly mentioned his marriage to Elayne enough, and Birgitte later heard one of her guardsmen call him "the Raven Prince;" one of the two of them will put that together soon. If Rand has not long expected it is only because he has had too much on his mind to consider what being fated to marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons means; Mat complained of it frequently after their trip to Rhuidean, and Rand has since learned whom bears the title. It is not that no one knows; it simply does not worry anyone.

Again, the trick is convincing the Seanchan the Westlands has anything in it but traitors and/or rabid animals. Mat will prove critical there both on his own merit and their travels gave Tuon first hand understanding she would otherwise lack of Westland natives. Bringing Moiraine along to visit would likely help, if only because, once again, Mat did not revisit the Finns, leaving behind an eye and Jain Farstrider, just to see her immediately enslaved. Perhaps knowing Mat, and that he thought one of the Aes Sedai he distrusts worth such sacrifices, will soften Tuon toward them. Perhaps learning Moiraines history will; she has spent enough time around Aes Sedai now to know the Three Oaths are binding.

Really, though, all the Seanchan need do to placate the remaining Westlands is stop conquering new territory and collaring channelers. IF they do that, I doubt anyone who matters will care who rules Altara, Amadicia and Tarabon (the Altarans clearly do not; Beslan could play a key role as Seanchan ambassador, too,) particularly given the cynical nature of politics and TGs imminence. Galad will probably end up ruling Amadicia in any event; the biggest question there is how he will manage it with a wife on the opposite side of an ocean, but he could conceivably bring it into Andor with Ghaeldan (which, with Mayene, would mean Tear might as well accept reality and ask for terms.)


The question is how many of those channelers remain outside the various channeler groups in which they, and they alone, would be ideal infiltrators. Not that I dispute your view, I am just quibbling over the number of non-affiliated Dreadlords. The WFs and WOs are not necessarily a net benefit in that respect, because they surely have Darkfriends, too, who were not decimated at front line positions in TGs first skirmishes, fomenting fratricidal conflicts and staging repeated, costly and failed attempts to kill various major figures.

Taim and his BT forces must be eliminated in any event; the Light cannot march to TG with such a grave threat at its back even if Taim did not meet them there. That could result in a pyrrhic victory reminiscent of the Trolloc Wars. It is like Gandalf eliminating Smaug and decimating the Misty Mountains goblins: Middle-earth could not march to a last stand at Minas Tirith at the cost of abandoning Eriador to a marauding horde (which would have happened anyway without a strong human bastion at Esgaroth and a re-established Dwarven Erebor.) Using the Dreamspike and attacking Caemlyn might prove a grave strategic error, because Taim and his cohorts could do far more damage as sleeper agents at TG itself (imagine a quarter of the large new intersex circles attacking the Lights forces from their midst.... ) Continuing the previous parallel, a role like the Easterlings in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad would be devastating; instead, exposing themselves now lets Rand purge them in time for a largely united reliable front at TG.


A third maybe, but half is pushing it. That risks a deus ex machina finale, where insurmountable differences between West and Further West magically evaporate just in time to face the common foe. That is especially so in light of RJs intending AMoL as the last third of a single book. That would mean the Seanchan and Westlands remained enemies for 90% of the final volume, then hastily arranged a truce and fought TG in the scant few pages before Rands personal showdown with the DO, being (most likely) carried to TV mortally wounded, and whatever epilogue RJ intends. It would be the equivalent of putting the Pellenor Fields just before the Tale of Years.


The key is that the Shadows only goal is freeing the DO, and how aware of that everyone but Ishy is (Ishy knows the score: The temporal battles mean nothing: If the DO is released reality, eternal recurrence and all the rest ceases; otherwise, an extinct humanity "wins," because no one can release the DO after the Bore is repaired.) However, I would not expect Demandred to pursue the populace, as such, either way. If, like Ishy, he knows the Shadows real objective, he knows the populace is irrelevant; if not, he will want slaves to rule.

Going after Great Cities makes sense, but to destroy the Lights strengths, not exploit its weaknesses. If the Shadow sought the latter, it could roll over the Borderlands first; Borderlanders are individually tough, but collectively few, and even their stout fortresses would not last long against another Trolloc Wars. It is no coincidence the Shadow is striking the most populous and prosperous area of the strongest Westlands nation. If the Lights forces can be overwhelmed separately in succession, no united stand at TG will be possible. While I do not rule out the possibility of myriad simultaneous attacks, the inability to Travel, and the resulting losses from using the Ways, would make that a logistical nightmare for even a general of Demandreds stature. No one wants to stage a battle against strong defences with no idea what strength they can bring to bear, but using the Ways means exactly that, and every additional such battle makes the odds much less certain.


Possibly, though I think you may be overestimating the Dreamspikes range. It might blockade Caemlyn if moved from the BT, but I doubt it could interdict Traveling to both. That does not make Caemlyn any less significant by comparison to Merrilor though; it adds to Merrilors OVERALL importance, as a diversionary extension of Caemlyn. Note also another argument Caemlyn is a singular attack is that the Shadow only has a single Dreamspike remaining (so far as I know.)


That remains to be seen. I do not see how the Shadow could do that with Machin Shin consuming an unpredictable portion of every force sent through the Ways (arriving at speeds proportional to the forces size.) Again, the only thing dicier than one attack with 250,000-x soldiers is a dozen. In a single attack, one can simply send enough soldiers to negate the attrition rate; with many, one must ask where and in what proportion to commit the excess, knowing attrition will not be uniform. The Shadow has a finite Trollocs, and lost substantial numbers in Murandy and Saldaea. Maybe it can shrug off a quarter million troops, but it cannot do so and then immediately attack a dozen or two major cities via the Ways when at least 10-20% of the troops deployed will be lost before reaching battle. Not unless the Shadow has hundreds of millions of soldiers to hand, in which case the Light is outnumbered 50:1, maybe more, and already lost.


Yeah, but ALL the Seanchan armor is lacquered, which is both extravagant (which I think part of the point: Empire=wealth) and impractical.


I agree, my point was lacquered armor is as functional as gilded. Both are fine for parade grounds and high ranking non-combat officers, but wasteful at best and ineffective at worst for grunts.